so, are they just plain old pretentious or or are you just an ignorant gimp if you cant work out what "to nkroachment: yarbles" is all about?

More towards the latter. "Pretentious" implies that Smith is just coming out with some pseudo-intellectual nonsense in the hope that people will think he's, like, really deep and clever, man. I think it's clear that this isn't the case with the example of "To Nkraochment: Yarbles" (which could be decoded without difficulty by a literate twelve year-old) and I think it's clear that this isn't generally his M.O.

Doubtless there are examples of lines here and there, even whole songs, in the canon that could legitimately be described as pretentious, though I can't think of one offhand.

Are you using 'pretentious' in a negative sense here? It basically means aspiring to something better, which is a good thing surely?

As far as I can tell from asking around, it's only in english that the phrase "too clever by half/for your own good" is common.

Definitely not, in my opinion.

Basically because I feel MES operates on instinct to a greater degree than most other artists. Like, if he set out ot make 'difficult' or 'ambitious' music for the sake of it, he probably wouldn't succeed.

It's hard to articulate, but I feel he's basically a bit clueless as to the fine tunings of genre, style etc - but he's got a great ear. Didn't he say himself he's got 'a layman's ears' or something? He does what he does, and it's all he knows.

People keep looking for him to spill the beans on his creative 'secret'. I think he doesn't even know it himself, he just follows his instincts - there's no 'technique' involved. That's how it sounds to me anyhow...

A lot of similarly 'difficult' bands/artists are definitely bordering on being pretentious though. You always have a feeling they could easily switch over to another style alltogether without blinking - not so with MES.

To me, pretentiousness also has an element of crowd pleasing (allthough to a small, elitist crowd). It's also a self conscious trait. MES doesn't give a fuck.

I really don't think that M.E.S's lyrics are 'pretentious' at all.

To say that his lyrics are pretentious would be to suggest that there is a sort of pretence or a need-to-impress in what he is doing - which I don't think there is.

It makes much more sense to describe his writing as intelligent, rather than pretentious

Pretentious, M....ES?

Get away.

As MES has intimated, the real intelligence lies in Editing down his pages of ideas, to just the Pith.
That means that all that remains is the pith, so he certainly cant be taking that.

:lol: :applaud:

I dont think the Fall could have been what they are without Pretension!
Other People's that is.
Lots of their stuff takes a dig at other's pretension, It says something I reckon that so few people have been able to have a dig back.

How pretentious is the fall?

Pretentious? No!

Bloody Minded? Yes!

;)

touche.

"Good evening, we are The Fall."

Ah, the old is/are thing again.

Mark E Smith is just about the least Pretentious bloke out there, this poll is just about the bloody daftest thing I have ever seen on this forum, its what makes the Fall, the fucking grit and honesty, sometimes I give up on this forum, Pretentious, what a load of bollocks, yep thats defiantly anoyed me :devil2:

They did some ballet in the eighties. Ballet is the most pretentious thing ever. Therefore I have voted 10 to counterbalance all the people who have forgotten this and voted not pretentious at all.

But with respect GVAB, the Kurious Oranj thing was so meaningful (to humble old me) because it was a ballet (pretentious) with possibly the least pretentious band in the world behind it. The performance seemed, from where I was sitting (and occasionally standing) to totally unmask the pretensiousness within ballet, which is also what Micheal Clarke wanted I think.
Sadler's Wells was an event and no mistake, a meeting of ideas and creativity that was feckin' brilliant.
However I respect your right to the contrary stance.
I'm with Hex en Hour on this.
:D

ho hum.

lets just have another "aren't the fall brilliant eh?!" thread shall we?

:rolleyes:

The fringe MES had for IKO was pretentious :D

Erp!
Don't talk about the leather glove...
:cry:

Oh that's not pretentious. :D

Course, yep, Alvin Stardust, pisstaking 70s infuences and all that, totally unpretentious.
As you were.
:whistle:

You dare mock the genius that was Bernard William Jewry!! :o

This bloke?

Perish the thought...though the lambchops are a bit much mebbe....
^_^

The HEIGHTH of fashion...at the time. :D

Alvin Stardust really should be taking advantage of the gap in the market left by the tragic demise of Gary "better than the Beatles" Glitter.

:lol:

Quiz question, 'whats the real reason for the glove?'
I bet its quite simple.

hygiene?.

Microphones must be real germ infested things

Beware thy lazy right hand.

When you have a lazy eye you wear a patch over the other one.

MES always wore the glove on his left hand, I think.

Pretentious?

Well, wearing that leather glove, Hugo Boss jeans, and walking off stage after 37mins 23 secs?

But worst of all, I think it must be the 2 occasions MES came on stage wearing smart trousers with the store security device still attached to them.

That’s not pretentious, it’s simply against the law.

If he tries to tamper with said device, it could splatter red ink all over the shop.

No way he’ll be able to flog on Ebay.

I voted for Estonia.

Actually I might be wrong, but I thought it was to hide unsightly nicotine fingers, but that would be the other hand.
Dont know then.

my mac dictionary defines the word 'pretentious' as :

pretentious
adjective
attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed

The music's not pretentious, but I fear the persona is.

Oooh shit, I've obviously been misinformed or got an older dictionary.

Well then I think they've got it just about right because they strike me as having a fair bit of importance, talent and culture than yer average.

"The wages of sin is death...through the long long days of Cheshire cheese"

Yes, this is connected to the deep underlying cultural reasons why education in England will always be crap.

No, just some of the fans. But MES always knew that and kicked against it.

Part of his trouble with Rough Trade was that they were happy for the band to exist on the university gig circuit whereas Smith reckoned they could break out of the NME universe. See his comments about Oi music, Lie Dream Of A Casino Soul, and the "raincoat brigade", circa 81/82.

but is it just a pretense or do the fall possess a greater degree of intellectualism than yer average group (gruppe?!!! :lol: ) ?