I re-read Renegade over the weekend.
Really jarred when MES said he voted Tory once.
Hope it was a joke, but anyway, I've never been able to figure out his politics.
Help me!

Being far removed geographically from him, I just tend to think he reacts to developments on a personal level which leads him into what would ordinarily be thought of as contradictory positions.

Here's a whole thread on the topic:

http://z1.invisionfree.com/forums/thefall/...showtopic=19905

Fine!
Didn't answer the question though, did it?
Except maybe this bit;

"The Fall's politics time line: communist - existentialist - miserable old sod..."

Tis me in a nutshell, too...

x

What's wrong with doing a poll of an existing thread?
It's more succinct.

Professional grouse.

I've always assumed he was a Conservative, with a libertarian streak.

It used to bother me, at least for a short time, but I find now that some of my favourite artists are or were conservatives: PG Wodehouse, Gene Wolfe (and I can't think of any more, though there are some), and some of my least favourite (John Lennon, say) were supposed to be socialists. And Smith was right about Blair, wasn't he?

A lot of the time I think he is, and then he does things which falls outside this: doing a benefit for the Militant Labour councillors surcharged in Liverpool, and, according to Brix, he agreed to do a benefit for striking miners in the Miner's Strike as long as it was in the North. And this was after he had admitted, and then seemed to regret voting Tory - particularly after the Thatcher government put VAT on Fish and Chips referring to it as part of a middle-class budget. :D At one time he also said that having as many people on the dole as possible should be the goal of civilisation. Bearing in mind my own experiences in the 80s, I see his point. :D

He also is quite happy to see himself as of the working class to a degree where he tends to eulogise all kinds of supposed 'working class' attitudes and behaviours.

With regard to the poll, whilst his values are largely conservative, I suspect he is probably leaning towards Anarchism due to his suspicion of government and the political class . R Totale made a case for MES's anarchism here a while back. I think he is too aware of who benefits under the Tories to actively support them - i.e not the working class - but he doesn't like Labour either, for as he sees it, they impinge more on people's lives by telling people what to do especially when it inconveniences him, eg the smoking ban. With regard to New Labour, he probably thinks you may as well have the Tories anyway for how much good they do - this fits in, I suspect, with his low opinion of the political class anyway.

Alan Wise who probably knows him quite well pointed out this disparity as one minute he will say something conservative and then the next radical etc. The contradictions make any categorisation very hard. So, all in all, he is hardly likely to be invited round to David Cameron's place either I wouldn't have thought. :D

Good post, HTL.
It's interesting when MES actually shows his colours, like doing benefits, he's as red as an old school phone box.
I think he's such a contrarian and prankster/wind-up merchant, it's hard to make out what he really thinks/believes.
Which is one of the reasons he's so endlessly fascinating.
Non?
The great Edward W Said, after the equally great George Orwell I fink, came up with the idea of a "Tory anarchist", to describe the also great Jonathan Swift.
Maybe that's MES?
I wish MES was just an anarchist, though.
And there's his endless working class defence/anti-bourgeois schtick, which I approve of in my patronising lower middle class wankery kinda way.
Probably is an anarchist, seeing as he's got me so riled and worked up about this.
Does that mean I win?
In a non-hierarchical way, obviously.

PS @ "R Totale made a case for MES's anarchism here a while back." Can someone show me where this is, please?

Actually, the more I think of it, the more I think Mark's just a complete loon.
God bless him...

I agree with this. One of the things I've always liked about The Fall is the notion that you go to the gig, enjoy the records and so what if you agree or disagree with whatever MES says about the issues of the day. It's not about the comfort of someone validating your worldview. If you want to be a Fall fan and be left wing then be a Fall fan and then go and actively do some politics. And I say that as a left-winger.

Ian Curtis was a Tory in the 70s and JD are one of my favourite bands. I was even listening to Roxy Music earlier today. Salvador Dali - he was an anarchist conservative. And the playwright David Mamet has moved to the right. And then there's Julian Fellowes who wrote the screenplay for Gosford Park which dealt rather well with class issues, and who is a Tory. Evelyn Waugh? Or even a couple of people who are very right wing: Yukio Mishima - I thought his play Madame De Sade was rather good. And what about Wagner? He was full on anti-semetic as I understand it.

I suppose there are limits to this. I suppose when it comes to Conservatives, it depends on to what extent is a Conservative message being propagated and is it more complex than a predictable right-wing agenda, and how Conservative is it. To what extent do I dislike The Passion of Christ because it's a bad film, or because of the messages in the text. In the same way, Ken Loach films because they are often great films or because Loach's unabashed political message largely agrees with my own perspective?

I remember his saying it - I can't remember to what detail he went into. Maybe R Totale can respond to this.

A quite significant factor I think. :D

Well, yeah, but no, but yeah, HTL.
I fink you can still have someone you look up to, and want them to be "look-uppable."
I agree with the Fall disagree thing, though.
But I don't think you can say listening to The Fall is apolitical.
If that's what you were saying.
And maybe you weren't.
Makes my brain spark.
When I listen to The Fall sound, it reminds me why I'm an anarchist.
Probably just me.
Sorry.

Are you an Anar-kyste!? teehee

erm...Anarchism on the forum:

A bit about MES and anarchism.

A bit of argy-bargy, re: anarchism (not MES-related)-uh!

Tsk!
I'm one of the old school gentle anarchists.
We smash stuff up and then say we're really sorry.
x

I don't think it is, to the extent that MES will express himself through his lyrics. I think it just has to be judged on it's own merits. A good example is Marquis Cha Cha. Now we know MES was in favour of the Falklands War, and on the one hand this may be inferred from the lyrics although he may not be directly expressing his POV . It's a rather plausible account of a disgruntled person who seizes an opportunity to work for a foreign 'enemy' country. Anyhow, MES stops short of invalidating the POV of those who were against the intervention framing the story in individualised terms.

If he had done a sort of pro-interventionist version of Crass's 'Sheep Farming in the Falklands' then, if you were against the intervention, there would be explicit and less complex text to object to - which is persumably what Crass intended towards those who did favour it - and difficult to be enthusiastic about playing even though you might think it's rather good apart from the message. So, I think there are limits to appreciation due to my own subjectivity.

Ill have to go for anarchist, but im wondering if 'Existentialist' could or should have been an option.
Seriously though I think M.E.S politics are first-rate, if only because he never seems to get caught out by the categorisation game.
If he gives an opinion it will usually be on a single 'Issue', eshewing the trap of holding an opinion according to some party line.

That is complete and utter bollocks, Ian was a socialist through and through

all of the above depending what day its, what side he got out of bed of etc

As much as I don't want to agree with any posters here, I fink you're probably right.

:devil2:

How is MES a fucking anarchist, though!?!
I've got a book on Anarchism somewhere, all about Kropotkin and that...boring as fuck! :whistle:
I would try and read it again, but I can't read.

Anyways, I voted Communard! BKLovesPinko's :thumbsup:

It's a shame you didn't substantiate your comment. What makes you say he was a Socialist through and through? I've read many times he voted Tory. Surely, you must be aware of this unless you knew him or something and could say for certain he wasn't. Are you saying he was a Socialist who voted Tory maybe because Labour only helped prop up the capitalist system under the guise of socialism so voted Tory? Or he stopped being a Tory? Or he never was a Tory. And if so, then why? I'm genuinely interested.

A quick entry of key words into a Google search such as Ian Curtis Tory or Conservative shows this is a widespread belief.

One example here. A review of Deborah Curtis's book:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn41...14/ai_n13982500

I'm happy to be wrong on this one.

Cause he flipping is.
He fights and questions power and interrupts your usual thought processes.
Good enough for me.

[deleted]

bah! nuvva dull post.

I'm going to read my anarchy 101, then I'll come back on here, oh yes!

MES is a fucking anarchist.
And I'm going to my anarchist bed!!!!
Now.
Nighty night.
x

:D

Nighty night.
x

[he isn't, though] -_-

He chuffing is.
End of story!

:finger:

ok :(

Sorry.
Didn't mean to be cruel or rude, Darren.
He is, though.
xx

I know, I was joking...I thought you were too! :o

:cry:

He isn't, though.
x

Alright, alright he is! We'll be here all fookin' night.
I'm off to my bed too, but MY bed is an anarcho-syndicalist...I have standards! -_-

Nighty nighty, night night.
x

MES = the best anarchist ever!!!
We win!
Rayyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Up yours, world.


:nahnah: :finger:

:lol:

"Up yours, world"??? :o That's Nihilism!

Mr Smith is such an A-One anarchist that he refuses to articulate his political stance....

I just think people should be able to run their own lives.
Tis all.
Time for bed.
x

Oh, got confused, on account of me being called Smith.
Anyway, to bed...

:rollover: :beer:

Night, Richard.
x

and goodnight world! :finger:

Why must somebody conform to a particular ideology before you are allowed to like them? On the other hand, I know what you mean - to take an extreme example, I will never willingly listen to Gary Glitter.

Perhaps it would be refreshing to listen to music from a country that is democratic enough to allow artists to flourish, but only well...vaguely democratic, so none of this ideological baggage gets in the way.

Anyway...MES. Hard to say, but conservative small c, seems a fair assumption if you only had one option to pick. But again, one option is an ideological way of thinking.

Perhaps the Fall, by their very existence, show that many of the assumptions of 20th century political thought must be wrong, otherwise M.E.S. could not exist. Discuss.

Sorry, I'm so pedantic, I couldn't help but correct the typo.

I don't see this so much as a discussion about which box MES would put his tick into when and if he bothered to vote, rather as a discussion on his values which can only really be interpreted through his lyrics, writings and interviews. Without going in to too much depth, as it is a contradictory can of worms because the man seems to me to be provocative and contradictory by nature, I think he is ultimately an individualist who has little faith in institutions - be they government or corporate - and more faith in individuals to affect necessary change in society. Does this make him a Tory? I think not.
As someone said earlier, it appeals to me that what I hear in The Fall does not confirm my world view - rather it gives a different perspective on the everyday which I don't always agree with but which I consistently find interesting or funny. His worldview is very much grounded in the North and his knowledge of history has informed him how the common people have been shafted down the ages by the church, the monarchy and more recently by the government. Does this make him an anarchist? A little bit maybe, but perhaps more of a sceptic.
Ultimately I would say that MES is vested with a healthy cynicism of all things political, and this extends to his methodology involving the group. He is a leader, no two ways about it. Does this make him a fascist? Naw, surely not...