In my opinion DS9 is the Trekiverse best series to date.

TNG and ENT supporters please have a seat. This thread is for Niners only. I would like to know what your POV is on this series. What's good. What's bad. What could be changed, etc.

So post away, Niners. Enter your POV and opinions here. :)

While I do disagree on the "best trek series" theory ;) I still love DS9 so.. I'm gunna post anyways :) Actually I love all of the Star Trek shows they each have their merits..


As for Deep Space Nine.. My opinion generally differs to most. I totally loved early DS9, all the way up to Season 5 when the war started. The concept of the show overall was fantastic.. a Starbase being in non federation territory with non federation officers who didn't always have to follow Starfleet ways. While the fleeters still had to behave like Starfleet Officers, the non fleeters (Bajorans, Odo etc) didn't always have to do so, which often worked in their advantage, although not always. Thats the concept of the show that made it different from the other Star Trek Series that were around at the time.

DS9 started off with a more light hearted nature, the war turned it a lot darker (as wars do) this is when i started tuning out of the show a bit... But im not a big fan of massive wars even though I can see how in a Star Trek Universe they would happen. But thats just my personal tastes :) there were still episodes in between the war episodes that I enjoyed.

Most of the characters had a lot of depth to them as well, Odo with the fact that he never knew his people or if others like him even exisisted.. Kira having grown up through the occupation.. even Sisko rebuilding his life after the loss of his wife.. Garak whom you could never really figure out what side he was on, Dax with her many past lives.. I guess it is fairly safe to say when it comes to dept of characters Deep Space Nine probably had the most diversity and dept of them all.

This is also why i find it difficult to "compare" Star Trek Series's as a whole, they are all very different from each other with different ideas but the same basic concept of Star Trek behind them.

I personally DO agree with the best Trek theory. ^_^

The darker nature of it, combined with the extended story arcs, and the great character development was actually what I liked about it. They didn't hide from problems like racism, religious discrimination AND religious fanaticism, war, or even a kind of ethical shadiness you would've never seen on TNG (think "In the Pale Moonlight"). Some of the other Treks are a little harder to believe because you never see these very real parts of the human experience dealt with openly. Higher technology, and even a culture that claims to be rid of backwards tendencies, will not eliminate from us the tendencies towards those things.

(Yes, Voyager had very dark places, too, but it seemed to me that a habit was made of capriciously ignoring ethical boundaries that just went too far for me.)

They are very different shows though, I think you'll find that voyagers direction in that respect was to show that differences can be put aside in order to work with each other (IE Maquis + Federation working togeather)

I admit that early on in the show, I found that aspect of Voyager interesting--but after those first two or three seasons, I found very little to hold my interest anymore.

I agree 100% I really tried too LIKE Voyager, but I found it wanting in too many aspects and eventually lost all interest the series.

It was hard to live up too expectations after the brilliant writing and extensive charactor development on DS9. Voyager was pretty poorly written and the charactors too underdeveloped and not very believable.

It seemed to me that every ST series had something different too offer and with each series they improved and built upon TOS base DS9 was its Apex.

DS9 was easily the best ST series to date.

I agreed.

The first two seasons were shaky but the backstory of the Bajorans was strong and slowly being established. By the time the third season began we saw plenty of excellent stories including the four season long story arc of the UFP/Dominion conflict. It was something never attempted before in the Trekiverse and frankly it worked. :)

Every first few seasons appear shaky because they are introducing new charactors and cultures. Overall the first two seasons were the strongest because they produced the bedrock of the series.

You now I found that DS9 was a lot worse than VOY. I was much more confined I though and I personally couldn't take all that stuff about wars. Religious wars, secretive wars, domion wars. I found it got a little boring. I liked voy better ebcause they were always moving. It made the whole "captian I've never seen it before" thing seem more plausible.

Its the whole Prophets thing on DS9 that got to me... in all other episodes previously they thought that one species worshipping another as their "gods" was wrong yet for some reason on DS9 they went with it?
I know the wormhole aliens never hurt bajor or the bajorans but still and all they are aliens so how right is it to allow them to continue worshipping aliens as if they are gods? I think all those visions and everything of Siskos as well that it went a bit too far

How??? I thought it was respectfully done. They never denigrated the Bajoran belief system and I thought that was a key component of their humanity.

Even if these wormhole aliens are "aliens", how do we know that they are not either still divine in some way--or perhaps in service of a higher Creator even beyond them? You could almost think of them as angels, in that sense...pure intelligence, even if not infinite. In fact...angels are considered messengers. In a way, is that not what a "prophet" is?

Spoiler Warning: If you have not seen the DS9 last season do not read this post.

The bajorans called them "Prophets" the Federation called them Aliens, in all previous encounters the Federation stepped in when "Aliens" were posing themselves as Gods to other species because they believed this act to be wrong, yet they did not try to step in on the wormhole Aliens posing as the Bajorans gods. The visions they gave bajorans through orbs, good or bad effected the natural evolution of their culture by allowing Bajorans to see things and then follow a certain path "laid" out for them, this is interference in another culture, but no one blinked an eye at it because it was "good" interference.
Whats worse was the fact that evil versions of the Prophets (Pagh Wraiths that were even living on bajor in the fire caverns) were also interferring with the Bajoran people in a bad way as a result of the prophets exhile of them, but once again this was ignored and the Prophets were never placed blame for their presense on the planet that was having a negative effect on some Bajorans.. It lost credability to me, and even more so when Sisko turned out to be one of them. Every other time when things like this were going on with a culture the federation stepped in and put a stop to it but they never did that with Bajor.. why? Thats "selective" interference as far as im concerned, the wormhole aliens, subtle or not where still telling Bajorans what to do.

Yet if you view the Prophets as "angels" in the sense that I suspect, the existence of corresponding "demons" is practically inevitable. In fact, the existence of an opposite force helps in some way to put choice back into the equation. While both sides are powerful to say the least, a person must choose which they will allow to influence them. Even with these powerful aliens (or angels/demons?), mortal beings hold this key power of choice. You could argue that this is what all of us in life must do...we face choices every day that can build or destroy our character.

As to why the Federation did not interfere, I think there was a realization that these were not necessarily "false gods". It's interesting how much the situation between the Prophets and Pah-wraiths mirrors that of the expulsion of Satan (an archangel) from Heaven. Even though the Federation seems decidedly anti-religion at times, I suspect they may have recognized something else going on, that they were not sure they understood...and something that the consequences of undoing could have been too great.

While I don't think the Prophets have quite the same status in the Trek universe as gods, I do think it's not unreasonable to think of them as being in service of a higher power, like angels. I've heard angels defined as beings of pure intelligence, that have never had corporeal existence, and while they intellectually understand the workings of things, they do not know our mortal lives. They are, furthermore, messengers. It seems very reasonable that some in the Federation may have suspected them of fitting this definition.

I think they played to much on religion. Every second episode I swear. I'm a fan of science, religion needs to stay the F away from my aliens adn ships :P :lol:

Hey, science and religion don't have to be mutually exclusive. I never thought they were. ^_^

I was just joking about that, but I do think they really over killed the religious side of DS9.

Woot, glad im not the only one who thinks so :)

Since the begining of time every culture has had their own superstitions and mythology. This belief system is what defines many civilizations. Too ignore such a vital part of humanity would have made the series less credible.

They handled it in a very thought provoking and respectful manner and it was an intregal part of the show. Probably the most in-depth look of any SCI-FI sereies in the realm of religion and different cultures.

Well, probably Dune would be the other series that treated religion so thoroughly.

Most other sci-fi is either openly scornful or seems to think that religion will fade away as something antiquated. I imagine that, were that to ever happen, it would've already happened by now. So, I think it's something that will be with us even if our race lives long enough to go to the stars.

But what are the odds of an ENTIRE planet believing in the same "gods"? Even on earth we have a bunch of different religions over all of the countries not just one. It could be argued that they had 2, the Pagh Wraiths and the Prophets, however they were both variations of the same species.

Well, the Bajorans would see themselves as having undeniable evidence for their faith in the form of the Orbs and wormhole experiences. I think that would certainly influence the odds.

As for Earth, I suspect it wouldn't be that likely--UNLESS there were a major religious war...which I actually think could happen.

I've always wondered, though, if perhaps we on Earth all worship the same deity, even though we understand Him in so many different ways (some even seeing multiple deities). That was another basis for my theory, that perhaps the Prophets are angels for a deity that truly spans the entire universe.

I didn't say they had to ignor it I just said they didn't have to smack you over the head with so blatently and so often. I swear I got wiplash from that series :lol: :P

Also religion moves in cycles there are clear periods of history where it hasn't been as important. Even now if you compare it to religion of the past you'll notice a masive decline in religious practices. That however is besides the point. I dont think science Fiction writters purposefully go out of their way to make religion of any less importance or any more "antiquated" than it may seem now. I think they just take a better approach around the issue. Dune did do an excellent job with the religious aspect but you'll notice that it was not nearly as obnoxious as DS9 in it's presentation.

I must be missing something, how is it obnoxious???

LOL Thats one way of putting it, but yeah, I do think that they spent a little too much time focusing on it and made it too much a part of the big picture.

One of the definaitions of obnoxious is

This is the english language my friend words have multiple meanings in multiple situations. ;)

I just thought that were alwasy harping on the religious side, how important it was and how big a role it played and how relgious the people were ect... Seldomly did they mention how destructive or manipulative it was however. Not that I would have prefered that because that too would been harping on religion. Although a little more evenly I might add.

They could have gotton the same messages across with a fraction of the "harping".

I think they did quite a fantastic job of showing the destructive side of religion--what happens when people manipulate it for their own gain. The religion itself (like many earthly religions), if the tenets were truly followed, works well, but in the hands of hypocrites can turn sour in a hurry. Right from the very beginning, Kai Winn was shown to be extremely hypocritical, especially in her conduct towards Vedek Bareil, which was downright nasty and exploitative. Those traits in Winn, of course, became far more blatant later in the series, including her involvement in the Pah-Wraith cult, but before that extremism emerged, they certainly showed dangerous acts by those in the more "mainstream" Bajoran religion.

If I may suggest this without causing any offense, is it possible that people's personal views on religion outside the show are coloring their reactions to Deep Space Nine?

religion by principle is often great. IN practice, or shall I say in the hands of actual people, it is never as "holy". I have no personal objections to religion I just don't think it has to be so over done.

It was a good show I'll admit that. But it wasn't my favorit and it's over use of the same of religious ques was one of the major reasons It isn't my favorit. I say "one of" because there were others belive it or not.

It's funny on the one hand you think I'm letting my disdain for religion cloud my appreciation for the show, where I think your view is being clouded by the opposite. :lol: The thing about reviews of any art form is that oppinion is was dictates wether yuou like something or not. You can't avoid it. You can't actually look at art (and TV is a form of art) completly objectively. Any psychologist will tell you that perception is affected by knowledge, previous experiance, and opinion. That's how our minds work.

Another funny point about perseption and opinion is that we could argue about this till we're blue in the face and still never change each others minds about how DS9 approached religion. :rolleyes: If it were a simple fact it would be easy but because this has to do with judging something with intangible measures and opinion it's not.

Putting aside all that though I still think they over did the religion.

Read more carefully what I said. Did I single you out and accuse you? No. I worded it in such a way as to include myself. I understand how perspective works.

You are right about the divide between "in theory" and "in practice". We fall short, that's for sure. But I think there's a lot to be gained if you try honestly. I think some people leave it at the level of ritual and never strive for that kind of growth.

I don't consider myself superstitious in any respect (except my magic mood ring).
But I will respect another persons choice to believe in something spiritual if it helps them cope and lends them compassion. Its only when it is forced upon me, directly or indirectly that I find it offensive.

I agree that religion is great in theory, but not in practice. Religion will always be the opiate of the masses, as such it blinds sincerely innocent people too the point of exploitation.

Please be careful not to think of everyone religious as being blind sheep or whatever. There are people who do follow blindly--but there are others who give it a great deal of thought, or who perhaps have had personal experiences they can't convey to anybody else, that have led them in that direction. You never know what the reason is, or what that person is truly like. Just please, be very careful to avoid stereotyping.

Sorry I have experienced too many religious dupes.

Anyone can be over zealous about anything it just happens we are on the topic of religion.