I'm sorry ah M. This is a form of a discussion and I think what a good place to have it here. :lol:

quadshock: mark's compositions, in my opinion, have been in steady decline since what... five years ago

weh: I think Mark is the best all-around producer. Whatever genre, he can sure write them out. I just thought his compositions have been picking up recently.

Mrs Lai: Steady decline for 5 years? What? 5 years ago none of Mark's songs were in my Leon top 10, after Dawn and L&P, there are abt 3 in my top 10. I think, again, it's a matter of diff preference. Justin is under Mark, I'm sure he was 'coached' by Mark, so to say Justin is better and Mark is in steady decline is sorta unfair & disrespectful!!!

quadshock: i actually never said justin was better than mark; i didn't even know justin's song was composed by mark. i said i thought justin's compositions were better because they stood out more. i also indicated clearly that, "i think" mark's increasingly commercial music is more factory produced than the type of music i prefer.

quadshock: i respect mark as someone who helped usher HK into modern music. Yes, he is flexible, but in my eyes he's more "all around good" than "great" in anything... i have yet to hear a hip hop, r/b, or rock oriented song that i feel is impressive. He seems to specialize a bit more (not entirely, of course) in ballads and ... this probably DOES sound disrespectful... bubblegum pop

quadshock: i definitely think he's talented, yes. But i do prefer when people don't "pump out" songs. i still respect your point of view, but i don't see any problem with mine at all. His somewhat of a dominance in the hk market makes many of the songs similar, because it's the mark style. His style took over HK, and even with tries at different genres it was the same style. I'm probably wrong, but due to my exposure to hk music at diff. times, Mark has this reputation in my mind as the one who is responsible for the generic ballads that invaded HK after like... 2001. I hope that Weh's right and he will improve, but i personally do not understand at all why HK music can't match Korea and Taiwan in production quality. Mark's a quality producer; he should spend more time on stuff he does instead of handling so many projects all the time. Well, in my opinion anyway

quadshock: on another note... did you know the hk movie industry is only like 7% of what it used to be in the 90's? x.x someone save them!

Mrs Lai: Quad, have u heard every Mark song? I think the reason u say Mark keeps composing typical ballads is because they are the ones that make it big so they're the only ones u hear. At one stage Leon was big for his ballads, only his ballads made it to the top of the chart, a lot of ppl thought he only ever sang slow songs, but we as Leon fans know that he sings a lot of variety, just that only the typical ballads are ever plugged.

Mrs Lai: No, u didn't say Justin was better than Mark, but when I said Mark was better than Justin u indicated that u prob disagree. If that wasn't the case, then let me apologise, but please make things clearer next time.

Mrs Lai: And BUBBLEGUM POP is Ronald Ng and Twins... don't tell me there's no difference between those songs and Mark's songs.

Mrs Lai: For some reason I think u have some sorta bias against HK music, u keep saying Taiwanese and Korean music is good, why don't u just listen to that...?! Why r u forcing urself to listen to 'lower quality' music and then complaining abt it. I listened to Korean & Taiwanese music at one stage, I didn't like the Korean voices & singing styles and I found Taiwanese music boring. SO, I just stopped listening... I don't like it, but, others do... I don't see the point in complaining, if sth is really as bad as u say it is I'm sure more professional ppl will know, and I'm sure Mark will soon find out his 'weakness' (if any) and improve. Seriously, from all the comments I don't think u like Mark's music at all, well, don't listen to it... I'm so sick of hearing what's typical and what's mainstream.

Mrs Lai: 7% as in decline in movie quantity? I watched sth that said the number of movies has decreased cos directors are spending more time on each film. Isn't this good then, cos they're not "pumping out" movies?!

weh: Good points. I suggest quad to get Mark 3-CD package. All his classics are on there. His blood, sweat, and tears.

quadshock: well this is what happens: i listen to a song, am dissatsified with it, and look on the credits and half the time it's Mark. I don't listen to something right after i hear about Mark's invovlement, but i learn about credits afterward and it's a disappointment.

quadshock: i don't like Korean music, but please find me ANYONE who can even try to argue that HK cds' production quality are up to international standards. The only one, honestly, that i can come up with right now is LMF's Finalazy, and it wasn't even a full album. For some reason hk producers can't seem to tightly control the use of bass and such. The arrangements in HK pop songs tend to be just looped, so you basically make half a song and repeat it and voila. I actually do not listen that much to HK music, but i am aware of what's going on in the industry. I'm not anti-hk; go to korean forums and you'll notice i'm the one constantly defending HK music, with selective examples (Janice is an excellent example). I honestly do think Mark's peak was either with the "Perhaps..." or "Leon Now" cds, and htat's why i still respect him. I guess no one understands how i think...

quadshock: for example Jay Chou VS David Tao. i respect Tao a lot more, because he actually has a purpose in his music. I'm slightly disgusted that Jay would "rush" art and force himself to come out with one album a year. I respect Jay, but not his attitude toward music. this is a leon site so i won't epxand on the example so much... sorry

quadshock: i actually did look at the mark lui box set; and i have a reason not to purchase it: the songs i like, i already have

quadshock: even in one of the janice interviews the team themselves said that they hoped to improve the HK scene because it's not up to standards; should they just leave the hk scene too?

quadshock: i'm tired of repeating the same thing every other week... off to more positive things. like watching the janice movie again. *calms down*

quadshock: sorry again Weh; i always seem to be the one causing heated debates around here o.o

quadshock: actually scratch the idea that there was a steady decline; i was quite impressed with the way he did Leo Ku's medley thing. that was nice

haha wow i never knew my messages were THAT long o.o

Thanks Weh...

quadshock: well this is what happens: i listen to a song, am dissatsified with it, and look on the credits and half the time it's Mark. I don't listen to something right after i hear about Mark's invovlement, but i learn about credits afterward and it's a disappointment.

That's exactly my point... u don't like typical mainstream songs, but they're the songs ever to make it to the top of the charts or get plugged, so they're the only songs u ever get to hear unless u buy the full album or go searching for non-plugged songs. SO I'm just saying u haven't really given Mark a chance if u're gonna base ur opinion on songs that have been plugged or won awards.

quadshock: i don't like Korean music, but please find me ANYONE who can even try to argue that HK cds' production quality are up to international standards.

Who said HK albums were up to international standards???!!!???!!!

quadshock: for example Jay Chou VS David Tao. i respect Tao a lot more, because he actually has a purpose in his music. I'm slightly disgusted that Jay would "rush" art and force himself to come out with one album a year. I respect Jay, but not his attitude toward music. this is a leon site so i won't epxand on the example so much... sorry

What is wrong with Jay's attitude towards music? (Sorry M)

quadshock: even in one of the janice interviews the team themselves said that they hoped to improve the HK scene because it's not up to standards; should they just leave the hk scene too?

NO! Because they're there to improve it. It's sorta different things we're talking abt here. They're prob talking abt standards, whereas when u complain abt a song it's just bcos u don't like the song, other ppl do. I'm not all that into typical K-type songs, everyone knows that, but I don't really complain that there's too much of it, seriously, we don't like it, but I can't imagine what the HK CD sales will be without these sorta songs.

quadshock: The arrangements in HK pop songs tend to be just looped, so you basically make half a song and repeat it and voila.

That doesn't necessarily make a song bad. I mean, yes, it won't be that special, but that doesn't stop the song from being good cos the melody, lyrics, singing etc will still have some sorta influence.

- Sorry M

No need to say sorry la guys
This section is for arguing all you want lol

Haven't the people in On Your Mark all written slow songs so far? Therefore I think it's still early days (and unneccesary) to say who is better than who, Mark has composed many different styles.

I don't particularly listen to Jay or David but how frequently they release albums is generally personal preference (if they're the composers) and don't think their 'attitude to music' should be much different.

Korean music and some Taiwan music are definitely already up to international standards when it comes to the production. I was attacking HK's lack of ability to have high production quality, and you were telling me to listen to Korean music. that's why i wrote that.

i don't listen to half the songs that 'make it up to the charts' because, now days, like you said, they're not my type. i do, however, test-listen some HK albums to see any indication of what direction people are going, and that's when i hear the stuff like that

in my eyes, the problem with jay's atittude toward music is that, rather than doing it for music itself, he's practically factory-producing it. The songs just don't come from inside him. David and Leehom both have a purpose, and although that doesn't affect my listening experience, i respect them as people much more

i am also trying to improve it, as much as you may argue. When i went ot HK i did indeed show people who typically listened to Twins a very different type of music, and they realized that they are open to more than they expected. Awareness is an important cause of the decline in HK music; with the promotion/advertisement war going on, people are only exposed to a limited number of artists and there is a lack of diversity. I personally think HK sales would drastically INCREASE with the lack of K-songs; the major sales aren't even in HK anyway; even at its peak HK still relied on international sales to back up its industry, which IS based in a 7-million person island

looping is a sign of laziness or, more commonly, a rush. Any artist that is famous for polish or spending time on their cd, or is a perfectionist, does not loop this way. Mark didn't loop this way until he had to spread his focus to practically half the HK pop industry. His arrangements (if he did them in the 90's) were very, very good. That's why, in the 90's, HK WAS the center of attention in Asia (excluding Japan). as everyone started looking at it even more materialistically, however, they played it safe and produced, yes, generic material that htey knew they could spoon-feed the audience for pop music

this goes for dramas, movies, anything. I was listening to the radio (903) and they had people trying to tell HK that the reason why korean dramas are taking over HK, mandarin songs have taken over asia, and korean/japanese (and now mainland) movies are getting all the attention. The only reason why anyone still cares about HK movies, at this point, is because of its previous reputation and NOT because it is a significant industry now. Old treasures have headed to hollywood and choreographed fighting scenes in Kill Bill and the Matrix, Stephen Chow has ditched the old hk-styled humor to reach the international audience (successfully too; the only people who don't like the movie seem to be HK people), and everyone else is rushing to mainland to get a piece of ITS rapidly growing industry

i guess i'm done; i gotta go sleep anyway. Last point is, you telling me to listen to Mark Lui songs is equivilent to me telling you to listen to every Taiwanese song out there. I'm judging Mark based on what i've heard, and you're saying you're "bored with it" based on what you heard. Surely neither you, or i, have heard more than 5% of what Taiwan has to offer.

Exactly, I haven't heard all Taiwanese songs... I haven't liked what I heard but I don't go around complaining abt it... u do! I only mentioned it as an example.

Besides when I'm joking (and picking on AL), how often do u hear me say sth is bad? It's all abt diff preferences. If I don't like it, I don't listen to it...

What? I don't get what u're trying to say... who cares where the sales are, as long it sells. OMG, ppl have like immigrated and all, what ever reason, who cares where the sales are. I don't get ur point, how will Mark changing his style move the sales back to HK???

And, there's a reason K-songs are popular... PPL LIKE IT! Ppl like us that don't like K-songs make up a small minority. The fact that there r so many K-songs out there is because a lot of ppl like K-songs. How would a lack of K-songs increase sales?! It's so obvious K-songs r more popular. U can't expect everyone to be like u.

Yeh, it used to be better overall, but isn't that more because of the singers and actors themselves?!

Saturday, April 23, 2005

Mark Lui being missed out by Andy

Earlier Mark Lui was being interviewed by Sandra Ng in a TV programme. Sandra quipped that Mark had wrote more than 500 songs but he still yet to collaborate with Andy Lau?

Mark says: "I'll meet Andy in every prize presentation ceremony, he will call me 'fai zai' (fatty) and we never discuss about composing, maybe he doesn't like a fatty to compose for him!"

Sandra than quipped that Mark whom wanted to be handsome mind about Andy calling him fatty in public thus he didn't compose any songs for Andy.

news from: Oriental Daily News

copied frm:

mrs lai if you don't understand my responses then read what you wrote first; all i did in my last post was respond to you. You said they should keep it the same all the time otherwise there wouldn't be sales; i said sales would drastically increase if the quality actually improved. The lagging movie industry is entirely due to materialism where people are willing to put any pretty face on a movie and hope people with little knowledge of acting would think they're "talented". HK's mainstream is so narrow minded now days that even Nic Tse's singing's considered good. You can measure these things... can he hold a note? Is his voice strong? Does he go off key? etc. not opinion

People rarely watch HK movies anymore (besides the really creative ones; besides Kung FU Hustle i can't even think of another HK movie that anyone else would even bother to see).

i don't listen to k-songs because i don't like them. i am aware of what's going on and refuse to turn my back on it because my hobby is watching the evolution and progress of the HK music industry. If you want me to list out what i listened to in the past week, i'm cool with it; maybe you'll stop misinterpreting half the stuff i say

i've managed to stumble across this thread through a google search on mark lui and leon lai and has read each comment entirely. because i don't intend to stay here, i am not going to register as a member, but i feel like leaving a few cents to this. perhaps it'll open some of your minds.

first off the bat, i can tell you i have never been a fan of Mark Lui's composition. I can vaguely remember the numerous of songs he's composed for Kelly Chen and Leon Lai, and to be completely honest, only a few has ever crossed my heart as being a stellar piece. That said, I also want to agree on what quadshock has mentioned. His composition is droned out, i.e., the songs, plugged or unplugged, are usually almost the same in beat and rhythm. I can't say he hasn't tried to do something different because surely there must've been a point in his career where he'd want to try something different and see how the public would like it. But that probably didn't work out too well, so he reverted back to the mainstream music he pulls.

I am making assumptions, but I do have a reason to assume.

The general HK audience do not enjoy listening to ANYTHING else other than MAINSTREAM POP. Let's see now... Denise Ho, she debuted I think a few years ago, with a semi-rockish album. Her songs in the past have been rockish, non-mainstream, until more recently when she sang "Angel Blue," which became a big hit with the HK audience. Do I have to remind you what type of song "Angel Blue" is? Oh, it's nothing but mainstream pop, perfect k-song. Having that said, another example is Candy Lo who does a mixture of rockish and pop songs. And what songs make it to the charts? "Garbage," a classic ballad that everyone enjoys singing at K, and "Sam Gok Ji," yet another ballad.

Having that said, it brings me back to why I say Mark Lui isn't all that spectacular and why I'd agree with Quadshock that Mark is like a factory owner, using an assembly line to produce his songs. Mark doesn't dare to challenge the music industry by trying something new because it won't sell. When money is involved, talents is usually wasted. A close example is Lau Ching Wan, he has acting skills, in fact I think he's much better than Andy Lau, but yet, he's wasted in films such as "Jin Yeun Sam Bo" and "Jeut Sai Ho Bun," etc. Why? because of money and because the movie sells to the mainstream audience.

Bubblegum pop is basically what I see as mainstream HK music. If you classify Ron Ng's ballad as bb gum pop then so is Hacken's and other "talented" singer's. Sad to say, even Hacken's ballads are really bland of late. The last song that I've really enjoyed from him was "Go Mui" and that's about it. And he's what? Known for his singing?

I do agree that sales is a very important aspect of the music industry, especially in a small but HIGHLY competitive region like HK, but one must not neglect quality when it comes to production. Would you rather buy an album that's of high quality or 3 albums that are merely average quality? Like Quadshock has used as an example, I'd rather buy David Tao's album than two of Jay Chou's simply because the quality is much better.

That then leads to the idea of international market. Why does international market matter? Simply because it usually increase sales. Why else would SM entertainment market BoA across Asia? It's because they are now making money not just from Korea but also from HK, Taiwan, China and most definitely Japan. And how did they manage? She sings mainstream pop too? It's not just because of advertising on part of the company, or her plastic face, but because her songs are produced with better quality. It takes her about a year to release an album in Korea, and half a year for a single in Japan. Further, she has had so many years of training (3 if i'm correct) prior to debut and then further training in places like New York and Japan.

Another fact to take note of is that Korean producers are now being more and more recognized in America. Has ANY HK artists been able to do that? No. Just to give you the fact in case you think I'm lying. Park Jin Young, owner of JYP entertainment, producer for Bi and G.O.D, has been composing music for Mase and Will Smith. The two songs have topped the billboard. You can argue that that's an INDIVIDUAL case but if it's an individual case and Mark Lui is really that great, then why isn't he recognized in the States? Go figure. ;). HK music is just not out there enough. They are too focused on the little region that they are in, too busy trying to fulfill the interests of the HK audience, selling what sells, not daring to try something different, not daring to step outside of the little box that protects them and tells them that they are great.

Oh another thing to question is, how many Korean songs have HK artists covered? I can't even begin to list. Jade has, Kelly Chen has, Sammi has, ... the list rolls on and on. Taiwanese artists, esp. from Warners, have done so as well. But have you really seen Korean music companies borrow song from HK? Melody by David Tao has been remade but that's Taiwanese pop, Friend from Jacky Cheung... There's only a limited number.

Then since we are on this whole comparison thing between Cpop and Kpop, let me give you a brief crash course on how they differ, mainstream wise.

Mainstream Cpop = K songs. K songs = typical pop ballad.

Mainstream Kpop = a mixture of good ol' rapping, ballads, r&b, pop and rock. therefore there's a variety.

You can say that a mixture is not a good thing but it's really because i think the AUDIENCE is beginning to be more accepting to different kinds of songs. and THAT is something that the HK audience should learn.

In my eyes, HK music does not suck, however much I'm criticizing it. There are many artists out there with great vocals like Leo Ku, Jacky Cheung, Janice... There are some great composers with an unique mind like Chet Lam. But it's the rushed quality in the mainstream albums, the lack of vocal training in the new artists, the reluctance to accept new genres in the audience that's causing HK music to die out.

Geez, this is so getting out of hands. Let me go back to the start and summarise.

This all started with Quad saying Mark's songs have been in steady decline for 5 years. All I said was that it wasn't fair cos u're judging just a sample of his songs. My opinion on Taiwanese music was somehow brought into this, but I never made a comment on T music like Quad did, I just used it as an example.

And then quality and sales was mentioned. I said I think sales will decrease with a lack of mainstream K-songs. Quad and passer-by are saying sales will increase with quality. TOTALLY AGREE, WHEN DID I DISAGREE? BUT, mainstream K-songs do not mean low quality.

Jay VS David, Mark VS Ronald or whoever... it's all personal preference, isn't it. U'd buy David, but I'd buy Jay cos I enjoy listening to Jay's style more.

Why isn't Mark or HK music recognised in the states? Ehhh, cos the styles are totally different?!

I wouldn't say Hacken's songs are bb pop, but they are very K.

The problem with the HK music industry are the singers themselves. I think most of the times the singers themselves refuse to sing songs other than K-songs.

Anyone, I can't be bothered with this discussion anymore, I'd rather read Leon news. Bye.

what about leon's chinese songs? i don't know why his chinese songs are not really topping the charts (i mean now). is it because of mark again or what? like i saw taiwan's mtv countdown.. leon dawn leon album appeared at 20th then 19th then disappearing from the chart..