Hey all, knew to Warhammer and knew to this site! Despite this, I know the core rules inside out & backwards in most places.

Trying to decide between Lizardmen and Tomb Kings for my first army. I know that they are both challenging to play, but I like a challenge (and have been wargaming for 9 years, so should be able to cope!)

Please can you run some advice past me about this list - I put it up on another forum, and recieved what I see as odd advice - more on this shortly.

Anyway, here is the list. Please let me know what you think of it:

Lords

Tomb King: Spear of Antarakh, Armour of Ages, Collar of Shapesh & Chariot.


Heroes

Liche Priest: Dispel Scroll.


Liche Priest: Dispel Scroll.


Core

20 Skeletons: Hand Weapons, Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer & Champion.
185

20 Skeletons: Hand Weapons, Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer & Champion.
185

10 Skeletons: Bows.


10 Skeletons: Bows.


4 Chariots.

Special

4 Carrion.


1 Tomb Scorpion.

4 Ushabti.


4 Ushabti.


1986 (14)

The Skeletons go in the centre, with the Liche Priests in the units. These are flanked by the Ushabti (in reange to be healed by Priests), who are in turn flanked by the Skeleton Bowmen (in range for multi-shot by Priests).

The King leads the Chariot unit, which is to take out enemy that can seriously hamper my main line, and (in emergencies) deal with War Machines (overkill, but overrun may put me into interesting positions).

Carrion and Tomb Scorpion go after War Machines and shooting units. Carrion initially, and then the TS helps out when it eventually shows up.

The TK is a setup my friend recommended I use, I think he got it off the internet (he uses High Priest instead). Do I need to alter the wargear (I got really confused with the item selections available in the book when seeing if I could change it [also goes for the Priest gear]). I have the odd point free, any advice where to invest them?

Here were some of my thoughts on wargear: I could alter the Kings' wargear to give me more effective power though. Unfortunately, I would have to decide between a Ward Save or Magic Offence (Golden Ankhra/Collar of Shapesh vs Crown of Kings) as they are all Talismans, and would need to choose between offensive power or magic defence (Brooch of the Great Desert vs Chariot of Fire). I am right in thinking I can only have 1 each of Enchanted Items and Talismans, aren't I?



The advice on another forum was that:

I don't have any Screaming Skulls, I should get them (I haven't taken any bcause the whole army moves up the board, and every force has something to kill War Machines, so I thought that I wouldn't take any, as isolation is vulnerability).

I haven't used all my character slots, and should get a Tomb Priest also (I'm spending 595 points on Characters at the moment! More would just be silly, as I wouldn't have enough core troops.

Lose one of the Ushabti units, they're too expensive (This I can see the point, but it would weaken my flanks, (but 1 unit in the centre would strengthen the line there)

Drop a Chariot, 5 wide [with king] is too much (I agree here, so that frees up a few more points.


If I were to drop an Ushabti unit, should I take some Heavy Horse to back up the Chariots - the Horse can flank as the Chariots go frontal, or the other way round (with the Free Reform, the Chariots might be the flankers). Would simply a second chariot unit of 3 be better? I know Horse aren't the best option, but as a supporting unit would they work?


I apologise for the length of this post, I am just a tad confused right now, and wondering if I am on the right lines at all for a good army, and how I can refine this into something better.

PS: Hi! been checking out the Tactica on here, and think this is a great site!

I dont know much about the TK magic items since I dont have the book, but cant the priests be geared more towards magic, more than just a scroll each?

Other than that I think that your skellie units are way to small, should be (preferably) at least 25-30 to maximise the use of fear and keep those rank bonuses. What you really want is for these units to keep the enemy in place while your flankers deliver the killing blow.

So what I would do is to drop a chariot and one ushabti from each units and get more skellies.

Oh, and screaming scull catapults can be really nasty by the way. Good ranged support.

Welcome to the board!

TK are definitely a challenging army. Lizardmen, I've got to say, are not. Lizardmen are a nice, strong, adaptable army. That's why I win with them sometimes.

It's been a while since I played against the Return of the Mummy, but from what I recall, I'd have to agree with Tyrion that your Skellie units are too small for comfort - if I'm getting this right, TK can only replenish their units, they can't add to them like VC. 20 is pretty much the minimum unit size nowadays, so for Fear to work you want at least 25. Your army is not large enough to depend upon team charges to get you that Outnumbering bonus, and Outnumbering with Fear is what all Undead armies use to win, when you get right down to it.

I'd definitely say you could afford to lose a Chariot, particularly if you re-jigged your Tomb King's equipment to get him a Chariot of Fire. I'm not entirely sure what the Armour of Ages does, and I may be a little uncertain on the Collar of Shapesh (-1 attack to enemies in base contact, to a minimum of 1?), but it looks to me like your TK could use a little more grunt-slaying power anyway. Remember, in most WH games, there are only one or two models on the board who actually pose a direct threat to a Lord-level combat character, and your biggest danger comes from being broken and crumbled/run down. As such, generating combat resolution through killing lots of basic soldiers is going to repay you more often than loading yourself up on excessive defensive or character-slaying measures. This is particularly true here, where non-character models that can threaten you (i.e. artillery, big nasties like Dragon Ogres and Kroxigor) are going to be targeting your chariot anyway, due to their S7+.

I've got to say, with no light cavalry, the Carrion look like they're on their own a little. What role do you have in mind for them, and is it one that's not already being performed by your Tomb Scorpion? Unsupported units ranging ahead of your army are likely to get splattered early in the game.

Two units of Ushabti are interesting - not something I've seen much. No idea how well it will work - you'll probably find it has extremely varied effectiveness against different types of army. However, to ensure they are used where they are best, you want them to be flanking, and to ensure they are flanking, you want a good 'anvil' to your infantry line. That's another argument for bulking up your skeleton units. If you could somehow squeeze in a third skellie unit, that would be perfect, but I don't see anywhere you could muster up the points.

Finally, you may want to give your magic phase a bit more attention. Proper use of incantations is vital for TK, and against a skilled player, you may find that while they're more reliable, they're actually weaker than a 'real' magic phase. Your liche priests have no defences, and no gear to actually increase their power: if your enemy manages to shut your magic phase down, you're almost certainly going to lose with any TK army, and most VC armies too. As such, you might want to consider offensive items like the Hieratic Jar to beef your magic phase up a bit, and other items (ward saves, the Cloak of Dunes) to help your Liches evade death. Remember, attacks are targetable: if you sit in the front of a unit, that will only protect you from missile fire - as soon as the enemy makes contact, he's going to be directing as many attacks as he can against your Hierophant.

Finally: it looks to me like your army is kind of split between a speedy shock troop army and a solid battle-line, and there's something of an imperfect join between the two: the Chariots, Carrion and Tomb Scorpion look like they're part of a different force from the Ushabti and Skellies, and it's hard to see how they will work closely together. I think you could do with shoring up this gap a little - with a few strategic sacrifices (an Ushabti off each unit, losing a Chariot, losing the Carrion), you could possibly afford a Bone Giant, who would not only be able to support either element, but would also present the enemy with another single-unit threat to consider, and thus reduce their ability to gang up on the two different groups.

I only have 13 points left over at the moment, so there isn't anything else to add in, so should I just go for it anyway?

Is there anything that I can get for less than 10pts that will help out the army (or should I accept I have to be a few points under)?

Here's the overall list now:

Lords

Tomb King: Flail of Skulls, Light Armour, Collar of Shapesh, Chariot & Chariot of Fire.

Heroes

Liche Priest: Hand Weapon & Dispel Scroll.

Liche Priest: Hand Weapon & Dispel Scroll.

Lice Priest (Heirophant): Hand Weapon, Hieratic Jar & Cloak of Dunes.


Core

24 Skeletons: Hand Weapons & Shields.

24 Skeletons: Hand Weapons & Shields.

3 Chariots: Standard Bearer & Banner of the Undying Legion.

Special

5 Carrion.

1 Tomb Scorpion.

4 Ushabti.

Rare

1 Bone Giant.


1987 (13 left)

Thoughts on this?

Hi Wanderlust, and welcome to the board!

I really like the second list, except for the king setup. The flail of skulls is only worth it when going up against multi-wound creatures, and hose aren't that common. Also, do your skellie units have standards? Right now, I only see one banner in the army, and that's on the chariots. An additional combat res helps out a lot with troops barely able te bested a goblin...

Wouldnt it be cheaper and more effective to have a second scorpion instead of the carrion? 5 of them is a bit much too considering their base size, can take a couple of casualties but still :).

5 carrion behind an enemy unit running away = one dead unit. I prefer tomb swarms for this, but carrion work just fine ;) .

I could drop 1 Carrion to get Standards on the Skeleton units - more rank bonuses are good. Is this a good idea?

COULD dowgrade Flail to Spear of thingybob. Trouble is, I lose the Str7 in the first round of combat the Flail provides. 4 "standard" chariots and the Flaming upgrade on the King, plus the Horse attacks, and the Rider/King attacks, should be plenty to cause lots of damage on a standard unit. Or, should I just take a standard Flail (my mate has his book back, and I am unsure now on the bonuses of the Flail of Skulls over a normal flail) if the advantages aren't too brilliant?

Rulesquestion:

When I challenge, do I lose the attacks of the unit, or do they attack the unit (not challenged character) once the challenge is done? If I lose the attacks, surely I don't want to challenge with the King. If I am not challenging, is there a better weapon to take on the King?

Of course, that is obsolete if my unit gets to attack the enemy unit, as I wouldn't lose the attacks of 4 chariots & so on.

Just use a normal flail. You will get the +2 strength in the first round, and save a big bucket of points.

In challenges, your units still fight each other - it's just that the characters in the challenge get locked in an exclusive combat of their own that none of the other fighters can interfere in, and that allows for Overkill. The Flail of Skulls is quite good for Overkill purposes, but you may be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut there.

Right, with a normal flail, I will have a good amount of points left, at least 40.


With this in mind, what should I add?

More carrion, and some Standards into the Skellies, or another Chariot, or Standards & more Skellies?

Or, are there any Magic items that will really improve the list (like keeping the King alive, or anything like that)?

Standards. Definitely standards. Full command, if you have the points - musicians are always handy, and champions will help keep your liche priests safe.

Would a Blade of Mourning be any good? I reckon that the Chariots are going to do a bit of damage by themselves, and so doubling the -ve Modifiers would be quite useful, no? Or is it too pricey for this benefit?

How does the Golden Eye of Rahnut compare to the Collar of Shapesh in terms of protecting the Chariot?

If I take a "standard" Flail, is pairing it up with an Enchanted Shield a good idea for the Parry bonus (do I get the "parry" bonus if the shield is magical)?

Don't know what the Blade of Mourning does. As for the Golden Eye - yes, it would definitely be better at protecting the chariot, although it would have no defensive value for the King himself.

A flail takes both hands, and so cannot be used with the Enchanted Shield in any case. Also, a flail is not a hand weapon, so you would not be able to claim the 'parry' bonus even if you could. But yes, if you have a mundane hand weapon and a magical shield, you can still claim the parry bonus.

Blade doubles negative modifiers from combat, iirc. I think it may be too expensive however.


Forgot flails were 2-handed...

How about a Spear (not necessarily the special spear, as it costs a wee bit, but would be useful)?

Or, a recommendation from a friend, the Sword of Might - it's not exactly a brilliant weapon, but constant Str 6 for a low costs seems alright - but does the King have too few attacks, and is the King's unit likely to get bogged down in combat?


Any recommendations for a really good RnF killer King? Every combo I think of seems to have problems associated.

Also, should I replace the Bone Giant with 3 Ushabti - it gives me a few more points to play around with, but is less survivable (lower toughness, but 3 more wounds, and a higher WS)?


Sorry for so many questions, just trying to get my King sorted out.