First off I would Like to say that I know Magic is all race specific some needing it and some not. Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings are excluded in this disscussion becasue to them magic is what wins the game. This disscussion shall be purely about the 8 winds of Magic not race specific magic.

So is Magic a key element to Warhammer Fantasy? Or is it just in to Fantasify it?
This can be split into two discussions

1. Wizards and the high points cost for the model. Are they worth it?

2. The phase itself and lores.

My own thoughts will be implemented later.

Personally I see little use in magic. But then again, I'm a Bretonnian, and I have access to only two lores (unless I take a lord-level Prophetess, who has access to three lores, or the 545-points Fay Enchantress, who has all lores).

I wish there existed a 25-points arcane item that makes the wizard unable to cast spells or generate power dice but adds +2 or +D3 dispel dice during the enemy's magic phase. If there were such an item, I'd take it every single game.

As for the use of magic in general, all depends on the army. Some armies rely more on magic than others. But to most armies, magic is merely a support, not a game-winner.

Magic is like shooting: it can be a game-winner, but you can forego it and still field a competitive army, as long as you understand how to stop your opponent clobbering you with it.

A magic-heavy army can be a nightmare for its opponent: magic is the most versatile phase, allowing you to directly damage the enemy, boost your own troops, penalise theirs, alter the battlefield and sometimes perform manoeuvres outside the usual turn sequence. While a magic missile is unlikely to be a game-winning spell (unless it hits their unarmoured general or something), a spell like Unseen Lurker that lets you make an unexpected charge into the enemy’s flank having already gone your full move distance that turn can well be the tipping-point that wins you the battle. Spells like Wall of Fire and the Lore of Life’s terrain-dependent damage spells can help to funnel the enemy into the positions you want them to be in – spells like Dominion (Dark Elves) and the Slaaneshi one that makes a unit move towards a fixed point can be even deadlier, giving your opponent no choice in the matter.

I often field an army based around a Second Generation Slann: with this army, I treat magic like a toolbox. When I see what my opponent is fielding, I decide what spells will be most useful to me: for example, if I find that I am facing Wood Elves, I will want some spells to counteract their dominance of the board’s difficult terrain, and some spells to protect me from arrows… so the Lore of Life will do marvellously, since it has The Howler Wind and all those ‘Master of…’ spells. If I’m facing Skaven or Goblins, I’ll want to force plenty of panic tests, and perhaps have some way to funnel their numbers into a narrower space to reduce their advantage – so the Lore of Fire is what I need, as it can give me Wall of Fire and extremely effective direct-damage spells, as well as Burning Head to force panic checks without having to cause 25% casualties. Once you have an easily-remembered vocabulary of the most useful spells across a range of functions, you can get the most out of magic: in this respect, it’s very unlike the other phases, as you can’t really vary the effects of your Chaos Knights’ charge or your Helblaster’s volley to your opponent’s weaknesses, but a mage can use strategic selection of lores to vary his abilities from game to game. Provided you can get the spells you want, you can then use the other spells you have rolled to try and soak up your enemy’s dispel dice before you cast the ones you want to go through: few people enjoy being pelted with Fireballs, and if they save their dispel dice to try and stop the important spells each turn, all those other spells will start taking their toll. I remember one game where my Slann was using the Lore of Fire against an Empire player who had taken a unit of Dogs of War pikemen… while I wasn’t particularly worried about them, as a starter to each magic phase, I would lob a fireball or fiery blast at them to try and draw out his dispel dice. He rightly realised that I had some much nastier tricks up my sleeve with my spell selection, so held his dispel dice and scrolls back for the most important castings: by the end of turn four, the pikemen were down to six men, and running for their lives, simply because he did not have the resources to commit to their defence.

Wizards are certainly expensive, but I’d have to say they’re worth it. There’s not a single army I can think of where the wizard options are so poor that I would always go for simple magic defence… whereas there are plenty of armies I can think of whose missile options are so poor that paying out for their limited missile troops seems a waste of time.

Magic can be crucial in a game (especially with movement spells and the likes), but in the end, it all comes down to close combat. To play an important part in a victory, magic must almost always be used as a support to movement or close combat.

Unless you have a cheesy army like Tzeentch-marked chariots or a SSAD, magic and shooting can't win the game alone, while close combat can.

In short: it's not how much magic you have, it's how you use it. ;)

Not quite true: I have played a few games (against Eshin armies and Wood Elves) where my close combat troops were completely incapacitated by my enemy's manouevreability, while my magic was pretty much the only factor that allowed me to fight back, and I did not lose. Much more frequently, I have played games where, although the work was done in combat, the actual setting up of those combats so that when they occurred I would be in a position to win was entirely dependent on my earlier magic phases - particularly using movement spells and penalising my enemies' combat abilities through Metal and Light spells.

Totally agree with Chili yet again. I have mostly played armies with lots of magic and they tend to work very well. Firstly I was worried due to the 7th edition magic rules, but it has not changed things that much.

Mages/wizards are deffinetly worth it, if you really go for a magic heavy approach that is. Other than that a simple scroll caddy will do just fine. Having an arcane item that gives you 2-3 dispel dice for 25 points would be unbalanced. A no-brainer for any army that does not wish to go magic heavy. Losing those power dices isnt really crippling. O&G have the spirit totem with similar effect for 50 points and is seen in most armies that dont go magic heavy.

Magic is great, at times. People usually see magic heavy armies as cheesy, but the fact stands that those armies have paid expensive points for those magic users, not to talk about the risk that goes along with using it. Adds another strategic dimension to the game, something that 40k for instance lacks.

(insert 40k junkie voice) but, but, we have psykers!
But what about "balanced" armies that take equal amounts wizards and normal heroes? are they just wasting points?

No. A moderate magic phase can still be very useful: I'd say that in 2000pts games, 6 power dice or more are all you need to make a difference. In lower games, you can get by with less.

The risk you run with a moderate magic phase, however, is that your opponent will also have enough dispel power to cancel it. Magic-heavy armies almost always drive their spells through in the end: half-and-half armies do alright against most armies, but against people with lots of dispel dice, or simply a few wizards of their own, they run the risk of a magical deadlock. That's something that a good shooting phase doesn't suffer from, but anything short of the magical equivalent of a gunline does.

As said, for instance 2 level 2´s in 1500p game would still be pretty "magic heavy" and where the same ammount of magic users in 1000p would be magic heavy. High elf armies, as an example, can have the banner of sorcery for intance that additionally power up the magic phase, not to talk about the seer honours ability to choose spells freely.

I was thinking more 2 lvl 2s in a 2000 point game with a lord CC character and a hero/bsb. As moderate or how about 3 wizards (1 lvl 2 and a lvl 4 lord in 3000?. Or Even a lvl 4 wizard in a 2000 point game and 3 hero CC heroes?Are these all "moderate"?

I believe our venerable Slann lord has waxed lyrical on these matters before. Has anything changed these opinions?

I'd say it's not too much. Not exactly moderate, but not really magic-heavy either.

Usually, I go with one scroll caddy in 1500 and two in 2000. If I fight Elves, I'll often take a caddy in 1000. So I never make much use of magic anyway.


[off topic]

KingTut, your new sig made me laugh out loud :lol: . But I've never read Call of Cthulhu (though I heard about it a lot). Is it worth it?

I'm currently reading two novels simultaneously, but I can find a spot for a third.

[/off topic]

Yeah, experience.

Yes.

It's not a novel, but a short story, really. You should even be able to get a copy in Penguin Classics.