Yo. So, university is almost-over this semester, an' I'm taking it relatively easy for a few days. Chili's new RPG is underway, I'm reading some Terry Pratchett (despite what my signature says), I've been smokin' some hookah... Good times.

So, in order to channel the disaster that is undoubtedly bearing down on me into something harmless, I challenged my flatmate to a 1K game of Warhammer. He's just gotten into Fantasy, being a Blood Angels 40K player the rest of the day.

I'm not sure what his list is. I think he told me at some point, but I've forgotten and it's more fun this way. I recall that he at least one block of Saurus, some skinks and some Terradons.*

At any rate, here is my draft list. Tear it to pieces. I'm especially looking for advice from ol' Chili.

Captain Eigruber:

• Great Weapon.
• Armour of Meteoric Iron.

Points: 79

Copper Eagles:

• 29 Swordsmen.
• Full Command: Sergeant, Standard Bearer, Musician.

Points: 199

Detachments:

• 10 Handgunners: 80 points.
• 10 Free Company: 50 points.

Bronze Chickens:

• 20 Spearmen.
• Full Command: Sergeant, Standard Bearer, Musician.

Points: 140

Detachments:

• 10 Archers: 80 points.
• 10 Archers: 50 points.

Knights of the Blazing Sun:

• 5 Knights.
• Preceptor, Musician.

Points: 139

Thunderous Applause: Mortar.

Points: 75

Crushing Despair: Mortar.

Points: 75

TOTAL POINTS: 997

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Some notes: I probably added something up wrong. Jump on my throat if I did.

The Chickens are my Halflings, which will 'count as' normal Imperial soldiers. I'm using a regiment of 20 rather than my usual 30 because I wanted to fit in more soldiers. I have plenty of alternative miniatures (pistoliers, free company, Huntsmen) if folk want to offer suggestions. Additionally, using the almost-required-vs-Lizardmen skirmishing Archers as Detachments prevents Panic tests.

I'm using Mortars rather than cannons because they're fairly cheap, reliable and cover decent areas: all potential positives against skinks, and they aren't a terrible loss if and when Terradons/Salamanders take me out. In fact, now that I mention it, I'm certain he has Salamaders.

I don't have a wizard. Two dispel dice should help hold off REALLY scary spells and meantime I have the numbers to absorb casualties. 95 men, plus two war machines.

Ideas? Criticisms?

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*Fun fact: My girlfriend just finished her BSc (Hons.) thesis on pterosaurs.

Are you going to wait for the enemy or go in its direction? I say that because bows, though flexible, are a bit fair on the Strength side, while handguns have a lower range. That's why I tend to prefer crossbows. But I've never played with crossbows or hanguns (I have Brets, after all), so it's all theoryhammer. Feel free to ignore me.

You focus on core troops, which is a good thing because many people neglect them and forget that they are often game-winners. But with Empire characters being so darn cheap, here's what I would have done: I would have taken a BSB on foot with the Armour of Meteoric Iron and put a mounted general with the knights.

All in all, it's a pretty good list. You managed to use the points quite well (I hate it when there's a 20-points gap in a list but nothing to fill it).

Overall, the list looks good: I’m not sure how many anti-lizard tips I should give you, considering that your opponent is a new player, but I’ll give it my best shot and you can decide whether or not to pull your punches.

Firstly, I’d advise that you either buy the Swordsmen light armour, if that’s an option, or downgrade them to the cheapest state troop you can get. The reason for this is because the only difference Saurus Warriors see between the various State Troops is their armour save: a 4+ armour save still remains significant after their strength modifier, whereas a 5+ doesn’t. The chances of actually killing Saurii back through your own attacks are minimal with single-attack, S3 models, and the differences between spears, swords, halberds and the like are so fine-tuned that the 0.2 or 0.3 of a kill more that you might snag from the extra expenditure is certainly going to be swamped by the simple fact you’re using dice – at that level of accuracy, even slightly-less-or-more-than-average rolls are going to severely mess with your estimates. So go for weight of bodies over skill, unless you can get that armour (or they already have it?) – the way to win is through combat res.

Secondly (and on a similar note), the Free Company may be a liability. Usually, flanking is good – but with cheap, lightly-armoured troops, flanking Saurii (who are probably already down on the static CR front) is handing them an advantage, because you’re bringing three or four more 2-attack models into play. If you want to use a flanking detachment, I’d advise you used Swordsmen (if they can have that armour) – knock off their ranks, but try to minimise the additional casualties that your opponent can squeeze out of the extra attacks.

Third – why the archers? You say they’re obligatory against Lizzies, but your only targets are going to be either T4, armoured and extremely unlikely to panic, or fast-moving, cover-hugging skirmishers. Lizardmen generally give archers and the like a hard time – you either need a deluge of shots (RXBs) or hard-hitting weapons (blackpowder) to make an impression. Auto-hitting weapons used to be top of the list at clearing skinks, but they’re being phased out now. But aye, the archers look like a liability to me: unlikely to accomplish much, and certain to be out-skirmished by any skinks your opponent brings to the table. Seriously, skinks are the best skirmishers in the game for their points. If your opponent is smart enough to go for javs and shields, they will even be able to charge your archers and most likely win. And even if he doesn’t, they’ll still run rings round you.

The mortars are good: in a 1000pt army, he’s unlikely to have more than one significant Saurus block, so pounding it is a good bet. Saurii are so cumbersome and expensive, armour-piercing missile fire is their deadliest enemy. Watch out for those Terries, though: they will screw your mortars up good, first chance they get. What’s more, the hit and run rule will let them breeze out of any trap you try to set up. Your best shot is probably to shoot ‘em – under 7th edition, they no longer get the skirmisher penalty to hit, so a few handgun volleys should give the unit something to think about.

You should also think about your captain – is he just there as a unit booster? Because if he is, and your opponent doesn’t field a skink priest, you’re going to be in big trouble when the Scar-veteran lays into him. Great Weapons are standard issue for Scar-vets, and S7 will go through your 1+ armour save without too much of a problem. The ways to get around this are to put the captain in the knights (unless his opposite number is a JSOD, that will allow the cap’n to engage on his own terms), or to have him free-roaming in the spaces between your units as a Leadership beacon, ready to join any unit he pleases. There’s very little missile fire in the Lizardman army that can threaten an armoured character – at least, without using a Slann.

Finally, watch out for Kroxigor: while your army is set up pretty well to deal with a single Saurus block and some lightweight supporting troops, if your opponent goes combat-heavy and brings Krox to the table, they will be able to work in cooperation with the Skinks to threaten your flanks and guard those of the Saurii at the same time: your only manouevreable combat unit is prime Kroxigor fodder, being a small unit of armoured, charge-dependent cavalry. I’d say Kroxigor would be fine practice for the handgunners if you see them getting deployed… although, of course, that means you’d have to stop firing on the Saurii. With that in mind, it might be worth trading in your archers for more gunnery boys.

Oh yes, and Sallies – you say he has them. If they come near your state troops, you either need to neutralise them with great speed (knights can probably do the job, unless there are three of the monsters, in which case they might find it a bit tricky), or run like the wind. T3 blocks of lightly-armoured infantry are every Salamander’s dream, and they are some of the most effective missile troops in the game. I have won several games through my Sallies alone, because my opponent’s infantry just couldn’t get away. Two volleys from a moderate unit of Salamanders will cripple any of your units, probably wipe out your detachments: a big unit will halve the size of your blocks in one shooting phase, with a little luck.

I do have some crossbows, but archers can skirmish and I felt that might be a necessity. Hmm.

Keeping the Captain with the infantry allows me to use his leadership field. Empire Knights are not Bretonnian: we do not crush our enemies in a glorious charge, wiping the field before us. We use flankers and rank bonuses and the like.

I decided not to get a BSB because Lizardmen have a range of character-butchering options, and BSBs tend to be very, very vulnerable.

This is not his first game- he played in a mini-tournament last weekend and had a Minor Victory, a Major and a Draw. He'll be fine.

Swordsmen come with light armour and shields, for the same cost as spearmen/halberdiers with shields, but also having WS 4. This means that WS 4 Saurus hit on 4+ rather than 3+ (Saurus are WS 4, right?) further saving men from death.

Ah. Yes. Hmm. I don't have more Swordsmen, though. It's Free Company or Halberdiers, and I'd say the two attacks from the FC will outweight the S4 from halberdiers.

Well, the idea was that, as skirmishers, they would be reasonably effective as an anti-skirmisher screen. But if skinks are as effective as you say, I might swap the spear block + 2x archer detachments for a spear block + handgunner detachment + swordsmen detachment. That will eat up some points, though.

I could drop this second battalion altogether in favour for a unit of handgunners and some pistoliers, but that is starting to look like a gunline. Euck.

The mortars are good: in a 1000pt army, he’s unlikely to have more than one significant Saurus block, so pounding it is a good bet. Saurii are so cumbersome and expensive, armour-piercing missile fire is their deadliest enemy.

That was the plan, yeah. Some more handgunners instead of archers may help with that.

Nope. He's there for leadership. Great Weapon lets him do some damage, perhaps, while AoMI gives him a reasonable save. He won't stand against a scar-vet, I know, but I [thought I] can absorb Scar-Vet challenges with a champion and concentrate on beating the enemy regiment with ranks, standard and the rest.

A BSB with the Griffon Banner (now sadly 55 points) may help in such a goal. Thoughts?

I thought Salamanders ignored armour?

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Okay, so. Drop the archers and get some more blackpowder, for starters. I'll see what I can rejigger.

WS3.

Statistically, they should get exactly the same number of kills. The halberdiers are better-armoured, but their 6+ save is an irrelevance against S4 Saurii. So it's pretty much a coin-flip on the strategic side there.

You definitely want two big units: if you don't have the advantage of numbers when the Saurii engage, then you don't really have anything. While flanking detachments might win you the first round of combat, you're not going to make the Saurii break, and after two or three rounds they will break you.

If the Lizzie player has a champion of his own, then all he has to do is charge with his scar-vet aligned to your cap'n so they end up in base-to-base contact, and issue no challenges. If you challenge with your champion, his champion accepts. If you challenge with your cap'n, the Scar-vet accepts. If you don't challenge, or if it's the champion challenge that happens, the Scar-vet just directs all his attacks against the cap'n. One guaranteed duel of the generals, and almost certainly a free 100pt bonus for the Lizards. Plus the whole Leadership-going-down-the-pan thing.

The griffon banner would be a good idea, were it not for the fact that it means he has to stand there in the unit that's going to frontally engage the Saurii, so he's even easier for Scar-vets to kill. In fact, without the Armour, he'd only have a 4+ save, so he might even end up being nobbled by Terradons using Hit-and-Run - they can charge in, put 6 S4 attacks on him, then flee, automatically rallying, being able to move the next turn, and without you being able to pursue.

Nope, they're just S3 armour piercing.

I thought swordsmen had 4+ save to the front, which would be better save than halberdiers have.

Another thing on the list: wouldnt just one detachment do? Is there really need to have 2 detachments for each parent unit? Especially considering that blackpowder weapons are more-or-fire yes?

Seconded.

If I wanted detachments, I'd make detachments of close combat troopers. For missile fire, I'd have independent units.

They do indeed have 4+. That's why I'd take them over the Halberdiers. Even at S4, Halberdiers have a hard time trying to kill Saurii.

Yes, Swordsmen are better than Halberdiers. However, we were comparing Free Company and Halberdiers for the detachment to the swordsmen regiment. Do try and actually read the post you're commenting on: I don't have spare swordsmen to use as a detachment for that battalion, although I am considering a solution.

As for only one detachment, no. Making a missile regiment a detachment means they a) don't cause panic and B) can be used to stand-and-shoot when the parent regiment is charged. I shouldn't need to explain why that can be useful.

Useful yes, but removing ranks should be far better. That stand and shoot reaction is 5´s to hit and 4´s to wound so. But I do se your point.

You only get the bonuses for flanking once. Charge a detachment into both flanks, and all the second detachment is doing is allowing more Saurii to fight. Unless you're using Chaos Warriors or the like, that's always a bad thing.

Well, I must admit you have a good point here.

What a shame there are no state troops with great weapons... That'd be nice.


Benedictus, did you consider taking Greatswords? Since they're Stubborn, they don't have to be numerous: the minimum unit size of 10 would be enough if you take detachments to negate enemy ranks. I'm pretty sure this unit would be able to hold the line for even longer than the Cold-Blooded Saurii.

Edit: Wait... now I'm not sure about it. Saurii will strike before the Greatswords (the poor Saurii don't get to strike first very often...), and I just calculated that they could kill in average 2-3 Greatswords per turn. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to take GS's, unless you put a hero with them to kick some scaly ass.

Chili has it down. Besides, Empire win battles through combat resolution and NOT through kills. WS 3 S 3 soldiers do not massive kills on the enemy make.

...which is why I'm not bothering with Greatswords. In a 1000-point game, they are too few to enable me to outnumber + outflank enemy units, and cannot absorb casualties very well at all. A small unit would be annihilated by Saurus warriors (especially if led by a Scar-veteran).

Let me say again: Empire units win through combat resolution. A fully ranked-up battalion, with a flanking detachment has +3 ranks +1 standard +1 flanking +1 outnumber = +6 to the combat before combat begins. The opponent has +1 standard. Using Swordsmen means I can absorb a few casualties with the decent save, and when things come to the crunch I may have a +4 or so to the combat, after casualties.

Against most foes, that's enough to make them break. It may not work so smoothly against Saurus (I don't expect it will), but it's a far more defensible chance for success than relying on the combat abilities of T4 Men. For comparison, a small unit of Greatswords will have +1/2 ranks +1 standard +1 flanking = +4 before combat. The opponent has +1 standard. The difference is very slight, and easily annihilated by some poor luck during the actual combat itself.

If poor luck can obliterate you in a combat, don't enter that combat. First rule of Warhammer: NEVER rely on luck.

Your final suggestion of a 'hero to kick some scaly ass,' won't work either. One of Chili's primary concerns was that my Captain would get annihilated by Saurus heroes very, very easily. It's a valid concern.

If saurus are so tough why do you have only 20 spearmen? I realize you want to win (as Empire player should) by CR not by overkilling so why are the spearmen so small? I would drop maybe the free company (i have never had good luck with them). Also looking at your archer detachments one unit is 80 points the other is 50. Im not sure if you put that into your calculations (i think you added it right just typed it up wrong) Have you considered focusing handgun fire on sarus and leaving anti-skink measures to your mortars?

I'm not relying on 20 spearmen. They are a part of the secondary battalion, the primary unit is the Swordsmen. The spearmen are only 20 strong because I couldn't afford to increase them beyond that.

The archer thing is indeed a typo, but not one that will remain for long! Aha, edit button!

I'm not sure what I'll do in the actual game. We shall see what happens, but it is likely that there is little I can do about skinks if I drop the archers.

A strategy is best kept simple: if it's too complicated, it can be thwarted more easily (and sometimes right at the deployment phase).

You should just stand and wait for the enemy to come.

Well skinks move rather fast. And they have wicked poison attacks against low armoured units (archers/handgunners/spearmen/mortar crew even against the swordsmen 5+ save when not in combat) so skinks are going to be a problem. Sarus are rather slow but by turn 3 or so they should be in range to do serious damage to his front lines. Terradons are not as much as a problem other then they distract the shooters from focusing on the skinks/sarus.
But Im going to stick to my previous advice. Sarus Do not have that great a armour save SS 6+ and shields with spears (i think) best to put hangunners to work cancel thier armour save and a 4+ to wound. Archers are at 5+ to wound and sarus get their full armour save. However If you want benedictus have you considered using pistollers against the sarus? Dropping handgunners to pay for them possibly? Or dropping a mortar and a unit of archers to buy more knights to go skink hunting?

Nope, they have hand weapons. 5+ against shooting and 4+ in close combat.

They would be truly deadly if they had spears. 20 S4 attacks... and even if they lost a full rank before attacking, they'd still have 10 S4 attacks. :ph43r:

I seem to remeber that they had the option to be armed with spears. (its been about 5 months since I last played a game against lizards)

Edit :I knew I wasn't Imagining It

If you spend some points on a wizard, Magic Missiles can really screw up a skink unit... T2 does not a missile-resistant unit make, and anything that doesn't have to roll to hit will do heavy damage to a skink unit... and with Ld5, they're prone to panic.

However, wizards are expensive, and by buying one you run the risk that the skinks/terradons will get to him before he gets to them. Or that the JSOD (if he has one) will just leap across the board and axe your wizard in the face.

Tut & @ztech: the spears are a 2pt upgrade. And Saurii in the second rank only get one attack with their spears... they have a rule called 'predatory fighters' which stops the 21-attack core unit thing. But they retain their hand weapons, so if you buy them spears, they can still opt to sacrifice fighting in ranks in order for a greater armour save in combat.

Not that it matters. Against shooting it's all the same save anyway.

This is why one detachment is sufficent.

Skinks are indeed annoying, but they dont respond well to anything with good armour saves, so knights are pretty good skinkhunters. Hopefully your opponent wont that TOO much skinks, but then again, saurii are expensive so.. :)

He doesn't have as many skinks as he would like- although, he said that a week ago, and things may have changed. He's much more the hobbyist than I, currently.

Knights would be absolutely terrible at skink hunting. Anyone with half a brain can use the little buggers to run rings around units that rely on LOS to do anything. Pistoliers are an option I'm considering, but I have no idea where I'd get the points from. 1000 points doesn't leave one a lot of leeway. [This is the reason I'm not going to bother with a wizard either, for the record.] Dropping handgunners to pay for pistoliers would be like dropping my right arm to gain another left: useful, surely, but not as useful as having the hands I'm used to. Besides, pistoliers are incredibly expensive.

Indeed. Heavy cavalry, especially with M7, is highly unwieldy. And it seems like a waste to use knights to hunt Skinks.

Yes, but I'm sure they'd be awesome at Skink-hunting: they'd wound them on a roll of 2+, which would make them able to break the little skirmishers easily (and it's not often that we can see fast cav breaking anything).

But maybe I was just brainwashed by Alessio Cavatore, the High Priest of the Cult of Pistoliers. To be fair, Pistoliers would be pretty screwed up if Skinks had blowpipes.

So why do you have the knights in the first place?
I see your point about the handgunners its just that I thought about the S4 but I forgot about the range issue.

Flanking, really. Plus they make a useful and reasonably fast reserve.

The knights are going to be more useful than the pistoliers: the pistoliers are going to be dangerous to the skinks, certainly, but it's by no means certain that they're going to actually win the skirmish war - when I and RasputinII used to play all the time, it would always come down to my skinks vs. his Dark Riders battling for control of the flanks. Most of the time I won that: Dark Riders still have LOS, and still slow down moving through difficult terrain, and if they had taken RXBs, were at something like -3 to hit my little preciouses on most turns, whereas the skinks could dodge through forests, see all round, and were always hitting on a lovely poisoned 4+. Usually, there would be a few rounds of cat-and-mouse, and then I would either drive the DR off with a support unit or charge the skinks into their big cavalry flank - it doesn't matter if you're WS2, you can fit four skinks against one cavalry model if you charge them in the side, and you're starting the combat at +2 combat resolution (flank charge & usually outnumbering).

The pistoliers will have to fight hard to drive off the skinks: there is a real possibility that the skinks will win, and the Salamanders and Terradons both have the capacity to weigh in and destroy the Pistoliers in a turn. If the pistoliers do win, they will then be left to hunting Saurii: while I don't doubt they'd inflict a fair few casualties with their pistols on the charge, Saurii are one of the hardest units to break in the game, and in the second round, instead of 1+ armour save knights, they're going to be fighting back against 5+ armour save pistoliers.

If he thinks he doesn't have enough skinks, you may be able to get by on just ignoring them, and setting up your formation to make it difficult for them to worm round behind you and attack the soft bits of your army. Skirmishers can be march-blocked nowadays, after all.

I´m too used to move around magically :rolleyes: , that would teach them to run rings around you :P.