I'm not really a Warhammer vet: I started playing during 6th Ed. I have heard of some armies that have been abandoned because they weren't popular enough (like Chaos Dwarfs), but I really don't know a lot of them. Okay, I admit, I know only Chaos Dwarfs. Nothing else. But I'd like to know more of those forgotten armies.

Does anyone remember some of them? If you do, please share what you recall about their appearance, style of playing, fluff, etc.

I wish they had at least created one Regiment of Renown for each of those armies, if only to keep them from falling into oblivion.

Uh ... apart from Chaos Dwarfs, there used to be an army of the Norse, and another called Fimir (although I have no idea what they were like). The lizardmen army superceded an army of the Slann, which was ... froggy, if I'm right. Apart from that, though, I don't know of any others.

We do not speak of the Fimir.

Other than that, what Thragka said.

I will speak of the Fimir. Just found some info...

Wow, they're lame... I will speak of them no more.


There's also the Zoats. In addition, I found a mention of an army called Arachnitids, but even Google doesn't seem to know what the hell they are. Must be related to spiders...

I've never heard of the Arachithingies. Sounds like a fan-created race to me.

If you want more information on the Fimir, we have some folk attempting to reconstruct a 6/7th edition army for them over at http://www.hammer-anvil.com. *shrug* I never liked the damn things, me, but some folk did.

I recall reading somewhere when I first got into the hobby that there used to be an army of Fishmen waaaaay back in the day, like first or second edition. Not too sure how true that is though. Could have been a red herring. Ha!

Cheers,
DLJ

Back when I started playing I actually had a Chaos Dwarf army, but can't remember if they ever released an actual army book for them, I just used to use the list they published in White Dwarf and the later versions that popped up in the Raveng Hordes lists. Quite a good army for one off games (this is back when your troop choices were limited to a % of the points cost- those were the real days of power playing...) but I found them quite limited in campaigns and tournements.

I heard a romour the other week that they were dropped because of the stupid hats they wore, can anyone confirm this? The same guy told me a funny story(well I found it funny...) about how the hats came around. Apparently the guy in charge of giving the models their final ok hadn't bothered to look at them, and when the modelling team rang him up to ask his final opinion he said, "Umm, I think you should make the hats bigger." To which they replied, "Well, their already pretty big...but if you think they need to be bigger, Ok." And the abomination was born. Gotta admit, as much as I loved fielding earthshakers and blunderbusses, as well as greenskins and wizards in an Dwarf army, I swear most of my success came as a result of my opponent wetting himself with laughter for most of the game at the sight those hats.

Good idea for a post BTW, I hadn't heard of the Fimir, although I had seen Zoats in 40K. Am I wrong in thinking they came up with a Kislevite army as well? I definately remember the Ice Queen character, but I'm sure she was just a character for the Empire.

This would be highly unlikely. They'd just change the models if it were the only reason. From what I heard, Chaos Dwarfs were overpowered because they combined the Dwarfs' defensive capabilities with cavalry and other fast stuff.

I think the problem with Chaos Dwarfs is not enough people played them: so they weren't really worth rereleasing. They also had very obscure, inconsistent fluff (AFAIK, they added a 5th 'main' god of chaos, who seemed to have no interest from the human followers of chaos from the North). I also think the idea of corrupted dwarfs just seemed a little weird, since dwarfs are vengeful, but on the whole happy, jolly folks.

And the balance issues were just odd. They were an army who could field 2 'basic' troop types: one slow, durable, and strong, the other quick and numerous. They also had cavalry, sorcery, artillery, monsters, excellent missile weapons. There was really nothing they didn't have: it was as if they could pick and choose from the best of the old world armies.

It would be nice if they had a heavy rebalancing and were rereleased as a WD list (since AFAIK, they're still from the ravening hordes list), but in the end they are a little too silly to be a main part of warhammer.

Or, at least, they should have a Regiment of Renown.

Many mysterious races or peoples that do not have the potential to make a full army could have a Regiment of Renown. Just to show that they exist.

I've got fifteen minutes. I can respond to this. Let's see how we go.

I'm almost entirely certain that's a joke. Mind, I've only been placing since 4/5th edition, so it could be true. I find it highly unlikely, however. I mean, really. Fishmen.

Yup, sort of. They released "White Dwarf Presents: Chaos Dwarfs," a collection of the various WD articles which comprised the CD army list for 4th edition. They never, ever released a 'real' army list, despite years of promising they would do so. I owned a copy of it, and it was pretty decent for supposed 'filler.'

I can't remember what I did with that. I think I gave it away. Foolish, Benedictus, foolish.

Yeah, that's pretty much true.

I can categorically deny it. They haven't been entirely dropped- GW does make sure to keep mentioning them to ensure they stay in the Lexicon. If GW wanted to drop them entirely, they would do the same thing they've done to the Fimir and 40K Squats. Which is to say, cease all mention of them and kill the loved ones of anyone emailing about them.

The intention is to retcon the little blighters, bringing them more in line with the modern edition of Warhammer (dark and kinda creepy), as they were somewhat comedic and light-hearted before. The army list was kind of limited as well, being essentially 'Dwarf-lite + Orcs.'

The hats, curly beards and emphasis on slavery and massive, egotistical structures and war machines are references to the real-world Assyrian Empire. Go look it up on Wikipedia; it's a pretty damn awesome empire, as Bronze-age bloodthirsty empires go.

There were Kislev models (including the Ice Queen special character) in 4th/5th edition Empire, but they were dropped in 6th edition. Towards the end of 6th edition there was a Kislev Allied Contingent list, which has seen some tournament play and several WD articles dedicated to them.

So far as I know, there has never been a full army dedicated to Kislev. Perhaps back in the days of 1st or 2nd edition: such times are beyond the ken of mere men.

Ja. See Also: Hellcannon, The.

Okay, the Library is about to close. But what I managed to cover wasn't too bad for ten minutes typing! Woo. I'll cover Swordsalot's points and @ztech's last post later. I loved the CD, so I know a little more on this stuff than most of you Younglings.

I believe they should have a full army. The allied contingents are not so good, but there's plenty of potential to expand the army list.

One thing that bothers me: in battle, Kislevites are no better than Imperial soldiers. Yet it is said that people of Kislev have grown hardy because they're constantly exposed to the invasions of Chaos. If they make a Kislevite army, they should at least rise their stats and give them some psychology rules: when you have to struggle for survival day after day, you probably tend to get stronger and braver than average.

Well, humans are human and I suspect that's the idea. For a really, really good fan-made list for Kislev, go take a peek at the one in development on www.hammer-anvil.com. You'll find quite a lot of us agree about the big K needing a full army list.

Chaos Warriors are human. That doesn't stop them from being much better in combat than Elves, Dwarfs and most other races. Kislevites should obviously not be as good as Chaos Warriors, but a few bonuses here and there would be nice. Say, WS4 for basic close combat troopers (and WS6 for heroes, and WS7 for lords). Maybe also Ld8 (but let's keep it at Ld9 for lords). And perhaps rules that makes them braver, like re-rolling fear and terror tests, or something. Oh, and S5 for lords, too.

I don't see why a race's basic stats should always stay the same. Why is there virtually no difference (stats-wise) between High Elves and Dark Elves, or between Empire and Bretonnia? After all, even within the same race, there are several nations.

That's very debatable. They're only human in the same sense that vampires are human.

That's an inhuman level of strength: simply being brought up in a dangerous place makes an otherwise normal human as strong as a Vampire Lord?

You have to remember that the WH stat system is crudely calibrated: on a scale of 1-10, there's very little room to show the difference between a reasonably well-trained Empire soldier and an experienced and battle-hardened Kislev Kossar, if you still want there to be room for a realistic difference between the Empire soldier and a superhuman Chaos Warrior or Daemon, and a greater difference between the soldier and a Chaos Lord.

If Kislevites were WS4, then elves should be WS5, and elite elves should be WS6. If elite elves were WS6, then Chaos Lords should be WS9, and Bloodthirsters should be WS11... do you see the problem?

Chili's hit the nail on the head. If you want to think of it another way, look at a stat like a grading system. Within a 'B' or a '4' or what have you there are levels. A B+ or a B- are still a 'B,' yes? But one is better than another. A 4.1 is significantly worse than a 4.9, but both will be represented as '4' on your report card.

So an Imperial Halberdier has a WS 3.4, while a Kislevite Kossar has a WS 3.7. A Dark Elf professional soldier may have WS 4.8, while a High Elf militiaman has WS 4.3. Orcs have a S 3.7, while humans have a S 3.4. So on and so forth. You get the general idea.

All elves have similar stats because they are basically equal. They have all honed their skills for a few hundred years in similar ways. Correct me if I'm wrong, but empire and bretonnians do have significantly different stats, showing large differences in training, way of life etc.

The reason Kislev will never have an army book is the allied contingent idea fits them so well. A kislev army is basically an empire army: they just need a few unique troops (which the allied contingents give them) and maybe an ice lore. If an army book came out, they'd have to really force new rules to make the army even slightly different from an empire army.

And your suggestions would make them disproportionately powerful compared to an empire soldier. You can't just give kislev soldiers elf stats because they've fought chaos. The soldiers of kislev are still men, still have similar tactics to reiklanders, still have similar training, there is no reason they'd be that different. At the most, you could give them a small psychological bonus, such as rerolling panic or fear tests.

But I doubt they'll get an army book just to give them 1 special rule.

But they need more units. Magical equipment, too.

Imperial knights have WS4, just like your basic Elves, without centuries of training. It wouldn't be excessive for Kislevites to have WS4. After all, in Kislev, learning to fight as soon as you can hold a sword is a question of survival. In such a place, there must also be a "natural selection" factor.
The Empire is not exactly a place where you'd spend your holiday, but life is still much easier there than in Kislev.

Some special characters from the Empire (not the official ones, just the ones on the GW website) have S5. The Red Tzar, too, has S5.

Edit: Damn, they edited the Empire special characters... Now they're all S4.

And it's not about how the character has been brought up. It's about what he has gone through during his life. I agree that a character's stats must be limited by his race, but I don't think S5 is totally unreasonable if only lords have such strength. I seem to remember that Chaos Knights (core choice!) have S5...

Why should Elves be WS5 if Kislevites are WS4? As I mentioned earlier, knights from the Empire are WS4. Swordsmen also are WS4, which makes them equal to Elves. Marauders from Norsca, who are definitely human, are WS4 and I4.

.

The same reason that humans should be T4 if skinks were T3. Because elves are meant to be a great deal more skilled than human infantry.

Knights are WS4 because they're knights - because their training is highly intensive, because they dedicate their lives to combat, because they practise and train their skills to a high level of finesse. Kossars just aren't in the same league - yes, they live in a dangerous place, yes, they are exposed to Chaos attacks, but they will spend most of their lives tending their farms, and will fight with simple weapons, simply - they will not receive any more training than an Empire halberdier. In fact, probably less, as their army is a good deal less well-organised. They will probably have more experience, but that doesn't develop their skill in nearly the same way: after all, a Saurus Warrior is born to be a soldier, lives in a jungle full of lethal predators, and can live for thousands of years, but Saurus Warriors are WS3.

Similarly, strength and toughness don't just keep on going up with experience. A veteran soldier might have killed orcs and Chaos Warriors and trolls in his time, but a beefy young lad from the village will still probably smack him across the room if he manages to land a hit on him with that pitchfork he's using. There are biological limits to human strength: even people who take it to ridiculous levels like bodybuilders (a luxury that almost all Old Worlders could never afford), they're never going to be at the level of a Vampire who can punch you in the gut and take his hand out holding your liver, or a ten-ton Stegadon (two examples of S5). Chaos Knights, again, are inhuman killing machines, their strength supernaturally aided by the dark gods they have sworn their souls to. There wouldn't be much point in swearing yourself to the service of Khorne if by hanging around in dangerous places and working out you could make yourself just as much of a killing machine, but without the near-certainty of degeneration into a mewling spawn and the eternal damnation of your immortal soul.

As promised, a few more notes on the Chaos Dwarves.

This is true, although this is also a result of somewhat lack marketing. Few people played Wood Elves, but the 6/7th edition revamp of them altered their fluff considerably and amped up the interest level. Besides, dark mechanistic creatures going against core stereotypes (Dwarves with magic, dwarves that are evil, dwarves using goblins instead of goblins defeating them) and utilising unusual imagery (Assyrian)? That has 'best seller' written all over it.

If only GW had used them. And maybe they will, eventually.

Well- you could say the same for any race, really. The point of army books and the WD articles that surround the release of a race is to prevent them from becoming too obscure.

Hashut was never a 'main' god of Chaos. He was just 'another' God of Chaos, and Chaos had always been about a whole amalgam of various deities, semi-deities and demi-deities jumbled together and embodying the end of hope and life. The Four are the greatest of them, yes, but not alone amongst them.

6th edition emphasised the Four to the detriment of the pantheistic approach, which is why Hashut looks so strange now. But at the time the CD fluff was developed (4th edition), it wasn't that unusual. As for why He wasn't interested in human followers...why would he be? He had an entire people dedicated to him, and him alone.

That is the point. They are in one sense the antithesis of Dwarves as we know them, but only because they have been twisted, emphasising the darker nature of dwarfhood. The natural talent of dwarves for machinery and creation has been pressed into the service of black smoke and tainted science. The dwarven reticence for magic means the magics they wield through Hashut are corrupted, ending in the sorcerers turning (back?) into the bones of the earth. The dwarven greed and stubbornness becomes all-consuming avarice, enslaving entire tribes and peoples, working them to the bone in order to complete increasingly pointless tasks. The dwarven ferocity and desire for vengeance has been corrupted into burning hatred and consuming rage.

Balance was a bit of a problem, yes. Something that I think could be solved, and I've a few ideas on that front, actually.

O, I don't think so. Plenty dark, they are. If you look a little closer.

That's what the Hellcannon is, really. A RoR for Chaos armies only.

If you're looking for forgotten armies, you need to look back at the 3rd edition books or earlier. For all intents and purposes, the changes from 3rd edition to 4th edition made it almost a completely different game. Even the basic statline changed: Leadership used to have 3 different but stats (Int, Cool & Willpower), plus heroes had a "+X" value which they could extend those 4 values to nearby units.

Magic was UTTERLY different, weapons were different, stats of pretty much everything was different even apart from the LD change, you could do things like have an entire army made out of aspiring champions, etc. etc. etc.

That's the book where you'll still see Fimir and Zoats. You'll also find:

Chaos Goblins. (like goblins but they got random chaos mutations)
Dwarf WIZARDS
Gnomes. (kinda like dwarves, but were better with magic)
Good-aligned Centaurs.
Sea-Elves (could swim impassible water features at half rate)
Fimir
Half-Orcs
You could make an entire army of nothing but halflings
You could make an entire army of Weres (Werewolfs, etc)
An entire Slann army, including foot troops, heroes, human slave-warrior regiments, etc. So yeah, an entire army of frog-people, not just ones floating on platforms.
Zoats (including wizard versions)
Troglodytes (40mm base lizard things that could get up to lord-level hero versions)

And, in the large monster category, we had all sorts of critters that no longer exist:
Chimera (lots of random rolling for stats & which multiple heads you got)
Cockatrices
Gorgons
Jabberwocks
Oh, and among other things, Elementals. Elementals started out with a lovely statline of all-10s. (Yes, 10WS, 10T, 10W, etc.) Every time they lose a wound their stats drop by 1, but hey...

There's more in there, like some Cathay and Nippon troops, etc. as well. (They even literally have rules for Nipponese suicide bombers. Ordinary men with gunpowder casks strapped to their back that hid in units like Night Goblin Fanatics and would run out, charge the opponent's unit and blow themselves up. Yeah, that troop type would go over REAL well nowadays. heh).