Title: 1000 Point Karak Kadrin Themed List
Description: Repost of my Themed Karak Kadrin List
Scaly - March 12, 2007 11:17 PM (GMT)
Brom Thorbinsson
Great Weapon
Shield
Rune of Stone
76
Dragon Slayer
50
25 Dwarf Warriors
Shields
Standard
Musician
240
19 Longbeards (Thane Joins this Unit.)
Shields
Standard
Musician
243
10 Quarrelers
120
Bolt Thrower
Engineer
60
9 Slayers (Dragon Slayer Joins this Unit.)
99
10 Slayers
110
@ztech - March 12, 2007 11:43 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Scaly @ Mar 12 2007, 06:17 PM) |
Brom Thorbinsson Great Weapon Shield Rune of Stone
76
Dragon Slayer
50 |
I must admit that I fail to see the point of the Dragon Slayer, especially if he doesn't have any equipment. I'd remove him and give some more stuff to the Thane, who is almost naked (and a naked Dwarf is not a pretty sight, even though the beard mercifully hides the worst of it). I suppose he has Gromril armor, but you didn't indicate it. What about adding a Rune of Resistance, to make him even harder to kill?
As for the rest, that seems pretty good, for 1000 pts at any rate. But your units, though they have a high static CR or are Unbreakable, lack some bite. Sometimes static CR just won't be enough to win a close combat by itself.
| QUOTE |
9 Slayers (Dragon Slayer Joins this Unit.)
99 |
Are Slayers allowed in units of 9? As far as I know, a character doesn't count in the minimum unit size (or has this rule changed in 7th Ed?).
Paymaster - March 13, 2007 01:40 AM (GMT)
Slayers are 5-30 if I remember correctly.
Scaly - March 13, 2007 02:44 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
| I must admit that I fail to see the point of the Dragon Slayer, especially if he doesn't have any equipment. |
Slayer Units are 0-1 unless you take a dragon slayer which allows one more unit per dragon slayer. Besides WS6 and T5 ain't easy for a basic trooper to kill. I have personally seen a single dragon slayer hold back 30 swordsmen for 4 turns (survived the game the unlucky git). Remember he is only in base to base with 3 basic troopers since you can't lap around now.
| QUOTE |
| I'd remove him and give some more stuff to the Thane, who is almost naked (and a naked Dwarf is not a pretty sight, even though the beard mercifully hides the worst of it). I suppose he has Gromril armor, but you didn't indicate it. What about adding a Rune of Resistance, to make him even harder to kill? |
I agree that the rune of Resistance is a great idea I just don't know where to come up with the points. Thanes always come with Gromril Armor there is no option to do otherwise, as for naked he has a 1+ Save when using his shield and a 3+ with the Great Weapon. Pretty Good for 1000 points, no mounted hero sure but about as good as a dwarf hero gets at this point level.
| QUOTE |
As for the rest, that seems pretty good, for 1000 pts at any rate. But your units, though they have a high static CR or are Unbreakable, lack some bite. Sometimes static CR just won't be enough to win a close combat by itself. |
What do dwarves have except for great CR units? They aren't exactly the most dangerous beings in the warhammer universe with only 1 attack at initiative 2. They are some tough guys, though, and CR tends to do alright when combined with good shooting.
| QUOTE |
| Are Slayers allowed in units of 9? As far as I know, a character doesn't count in the minimum unit size (or has this rule changed in 7th Ed?). |
Changed with 7th all dwarf special units (slayers, miners, ironbreakers, hammerers) have a minimum size of 5 not 10.
Scaly - March 13, 2007 03:37 AM (GMT)
UPDATE:
In response to @ztech I made the following list to make it more hitty and protect the Thane better what do you think?
Thane
Great Weapon
Master Rune of Gromril
Dragon Slayer
25 Warriors
Shields
Standard
Musician
19 Longbeards
Shields
Standard
Musician
12 Troll Slayers
11 Troll Slayers (Dragon Slayer Goes here.)
Bolt Thrower
Engineer
Bolt Thrower
Engineer
Total: 1000 (even ;) )
I think I really like this list I never really like quarrellers as they often not very effective for me, but when you need them you need them
Burro Boskov - March 13, 2007 10:16 AM (GMT)
I like it, but two bolt throwers doesnt seem enough for me though. But thats just me.
Then again, since you dont have asmany points of shooting, there is way more fighting, which is good. It looks like a lot of fun to play with.
Yeah, I have my own Dragon Slayer, using the Skull Pass model (one of the worst ever made). We like to call him the Wimp. And he has served his purpose manytimes.
Burro Boskov
@ztech - March 13, 2007 03:52 PM (GMT)
I like the second list better. ;) The Slayer units are bigger. And bolt throwers work well in pairs. The Thane is pretty tough now, with his 1+ save even with a GW.
I didn't know the Slayers were 0-1 and that the limitation was removed by the Dragon Slayer. So now I see the point.
| QUOTE |
| Changed with 7th all dwarf special units (slayers, miners, ironbreakers, hammerers) have a minimum size of 5 not 10. |
That's unfair. And it encourages MSU armies. <_<
Burro Boskov - March 13, 2007 04:49 PM (GMT)
And MSU is almost the worst thing possible for a dwarf. Its like Scaly said, they arent the meanest punch, but they are better on defense. Thats why you need more guys.
Its like the old dwarven saying
"A dwarf army is like a Chain Mail shirt, each dwarf being a chain. When the chains are all connected, nary a blow will pass"
You cant protect much with only 5 chains.
Burro Boskov
@ztech - March 13, 2007 04:58 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Burro Boskov @ Mar 13 2007, 11:49 AM) |
Its like the old dwarven saying
"A dwarf army is like a Chain Mail shirt, each dwarf being a chain. When the chains are all connected, nary a blow will pass"
You cant protect much with only 5 chains. |
Slayers being Unbreakable, they are a quite different thing. You need just enough of them to make sure at least one of them survives the first turn. An unit of 5 Slayers could easily withstand the charge of as many Imperial or High Elven knights. There will be only one or two Slayers left, but that's enough to get the knights stuck in close combat for another turn and possibly ruin your opponent's whole tactic.
Scaly - March 17, 2007 07:44 PM (GMT)
Try this on for size:
Thane
Great Weapon
Shield
Rune of Stone
Dragon Slayer
20 Dwarf Warriors
Shields
Standard/Musician
19 Dwarf Warriors (Thane goes here)
Shields
Standard/Musician
10 Quarrelers
Shields
11 Slayers (Dragon Slayer goes here)
12 Slayers
Bolt Thrower
Engineer
Bolt Thrower
Engineer
Total: 1000 (on the money ^_^ )
Dwarfs: 82
@ztech - March 17, 2007 08:40 PM (GMT)
Not bad. Removing 5 Warriors is alright when your unit is already big, tough and very disciplined, and the Quarellers are a nice add to the lot (I just love crossbows). But your unit of 12 Slayers could easily be reduced to 10 while keeping almost all of its annoyance ability effectiveness, and it would allow you to put back the Master Rune of Gromril on the Thane's shiny dwarf armor.
Scaly - March 21, 2007 01:20 PM (GMT)
Another Update:
I finally found a good name for my army:
The Kazad Gromar GarrisonWhat is Kazad Gromar?:Kazad Gromar (Translation: Kazad=Fortress Gromar=Brave or Defiant, in sum it means Defiant or Brave Fortress) is a fort outside the walls of Karak Kadrin (
Map, Upper Left). As you can see it guards two passes and the Shrine of Grimnir itself! A truly important strategic location that is bound to be crawling with slayers as well as Garrison troops stationed there to protect the relic and the passes, sounds like the perfect place to base my army on.
Pictures of Kazad Gromar:First Angle of Kazad Gromar and Second AngleThe Kazad Gromar Garrison 1000 Point ListThane Rian Rikazling, Guardian of Kazad Gromar
Great Weapon
Master Rune of Gromril
Bok the Fallen, Former Guardian of Kazad Gromar
20 Dwarf Warriors
Shields
Standard/Musician
19 Dwarf Warriors (Thane goes here)
Shields
Standard/Musician
10 Quarrelers
Shields
9 Slayers (Dragon Slayer goes here)
10 Slayers
Above is a List we all know, but here is the change and the question:Canon
Rune of Forging
Rune of Fire
Engineer
ORBolt Thrower
Engineer
Rune of Penetrating
Bolt Thrower
Engineer
Which would you choose the cannon or the bolt throwers?
I lean towards Bolt throwers since that is 8 dwarves to the cannon's 4 (a 5% increase in Dwarfs) and it decentralizes the shooting part of the list (26.5% of the List) making it harder to take out my warmachine(s).
On the other hand I am not completely sold Str 10 and Shooting through ranks is a real plus!
Thragka - March 21, 2007 07:48 PM (GMT)
Well, I'm not a dwarf player, so I may eat my own words later, but on the face of things I'd go for the two bolt throwers. With the two war machines, you have more options. Plus, in 1000 points, I don't see you needing Str 10 too much.
(Plus I am not very good at aiming.)
Tyrion - March 21, 2007 07:52 PM (GMT)
IŽd go with the bolt throwers aswell, as thragka said, no need for S10 in 1k armies. Also, two machines is better than one in most cases.
@ztech - March 22, 2007 12:02 AM (GMT)
Indeed, the two bolt throwers are definitely the way to go. Bolt throwers are pretty cheap for their destruction potential.
I sometimes play against a Dwarf opponent and I have observed that his cannons are not always exceptionally efficient.
Scaly - March 22, 2007 12:45 AM (GMT)
What about the following:
The Kazad Gromar Garrison 1000 Point List
Thane Rian Rikazling, Guardian of Kazad Gromar
Great Weapon
Master Rune of Gromril
Bok the Fallen, Former Guardian of Kazad Gromar
25 Dwarf Warriors
Shields
Standard/Musician
19 Longbeards (Thane goes here)
Shields
Standard/Musician
10 Quarrelers
13 Slayers (Dragon Slayer Goes here)
Bolt Thrower
Engineer
Bolt Thrower
Engineer
Total: 1000
Dwarfs: 77 (:blink:)
Personally I like it more. Much more like the horde I am used to playing. But I truly value your opinions so please share them.
Burro Boskov - March 23, 2007 06:12 PM (GMT)
I like this list.
You have your horde, you have your slayers, you have your shooting, you have it all.
Keep like this I say.
If you want you can always drop a slayer and the bolt throwers, and then you have your cannon back, if you know you need the strength 10.
Burro Boskov
Scaly - March 27, 2007 07:40 PM (GMT)
In case I feel like some gun powder:
The Kazad Gromar Garrison 1000 Point List
Thane Rian Rikazling, Guardian of Kazad Gromar
Great Weapon
Master Rune of Gromril
Bok the Fallen, Former Guardian of Kazad Gromar
25 Dwarf Warriors
Shields
Standard/Musician
19 Longbeards (Thane goes here)
Shields
Standard/Musician
11 Slayers (Dragon Slayer Goes here)
Cannon
Rune of Forging
Rune of Burning
Organ Gun
Total: 1000
Dwarfs: 63
This will probably be the list I use to get away from the Quarrelers, Bolt Throwers, and Grudge Throwers of my other Karak Hirn List. I will use Thunderers, Cannons, and Organ Guns instead. I may even use Gyrocopters and Flame Cannons on occasion, but probably very infrequently as I believe in Horde Style Dwarfs and these seem like un-needed point sinks.