Ok, so I´ll be facing lizzies in about a weeks time and I have a pretty good idea of what my opponent will be fielding. Mostly lots and lots of saurus (surely led by a bsb if he has any wits) and an oldblood on a carnie :ph43r: .

So I play an infantry based O&G list (http://z1.invisionfree.com/forums/Warhamme...topic=8086&st=0 be sure to scroll down).

I´ve read through Chilis topic regarding saurus legions and have a pretty good idea regarding their strengths, but what about their weaknesses? Anything one can exploit?

And what could be done about the carnie? It´s a force to be reckoned with and just the thought of having that..that...thing slamming in my flank just gives me the creeps :blink: .

Oh, and on the list: I do not have those small units of goblins yet so for those points I have a unit of 10 squig hoppers :).

I see long close combat melees in sight...

That's right, you might be in trouble. Your lists concentrate on static CR, but against big blocks of Saurii, your opponent's superior stats and cold-bloodedness will make him hard to break. The only idea I have with the list you're going to field is to try to smother enemy units by sending several regiments against each: if you try to fight each block of Saurii with a single block of Orcs, you're going to lose over time.

Of course, that means you'll have to concentrate most of your army on only two or three Saurus blocks, then, when you're done, attack the next two or three blocks. One thing is sure: you can't attempt to assault the whole of your opponent's army all at once. That would lead to an inevitable failure.

Try to split his forces in two. Wolf Riders and Squig Hoppers should be able to do that pretty well. You'll first crush one half, then the next.

The weakness of the Saurus Legion lies in its very limited ability to manouevre: Saurus blocks are large-base, M4, and generally once you have spent the points on enough Saurii to make a passable Legion, you only have enough peripheral and support troops left for flanking, and can't afford to have any mobile troops operating as a rearguard to prevent march-blocking. A Saurus Legion is not a strong army against a good player: if you can break it up and slow it down, you can hit the Saurus blocks from multiple angles at once, and break them through sheer weight of combat resolution and kills. The problem, of course, is achieving that.

Things to bear in mind from an O&G perspective:

1. Think twice before committing your cheap troops. Sometimes, against Saurus, throwing T3, lightly-armoured soldiers into the mix can be a bad idea even when it's on a flank: you have to balance the CR you'll get against the additional kills your opponent will achieve from you bringing all those extra 2-attack models into combat. A good example is the 'Zombie Cross' - a unit of 20 Saurii, with units of 20 Zombies on its front, rear and both flanks, will actually kill them all in about four rounds, due to the number of attacks it gets from being surrounded.

2. Ensure the odds are overwhelmingly in your favour. Saurii operate on a different scale to everyone else when it comes to breaking: while with most troops, winning by one or two is enough to give you a decent chance at breaking your opponent, with Saurii, winning by three or four or even four or five is essential, especially if a BSB is nearby. A Saurus block can afford to lose a couple of rounds of combat, because it's in all likelihood not going to go anywhere when it does: unless you have a unit front-loaded with very dangerous characters, or a combi-charge of various elite units (Wolf Riders et al. are iffy due to point one), don't rely on breaking them. Chariots are particularly handy for this purpose, as they provide a decent bundle of kills and stop the Saurii from striking back at your other troops.

3. Bait and flee. All those cheap units that are somewhat dangerous to commit due to their capacity to get chewed up and spat out by the Saurus Warriors - Wolf Riders, Goblins, Snotlings etc. - are perfect for forcing your opponent to break up his line. A good Saurus Legion player tries to grind forwards cohesively, using his units' broad frontage to guard each others' flanks - if you can get some to go faster than others, or even better, in different directions from others, then you're already halfway to winning. Stick a cheap unit an inch in front of one of his units so he has to charge or else sit there, and then either leg it so he fails the charge and only goes 4", forcing the rest of the line to go at the same speed if they want to stay together or else disjointing them, or take the charge and let the overrun move carry him too far forwards, opening up his flanks (if he chooses not to pursue/overrun, he'll only have gone one inch). Angle your bait units to draw the blocks off in awkward directions. March-block selected units to try and break up his formation. Saurii are not nearly as dangerous in lone units as they are in a big stonking line, where anyone trying to get round their sides is presented with yet another unit of Saurii, growling at them.

As for the Carnosaur... they're not that special, considering how easy they are to both kill and divert. If you want to kill it, two or three cheap-as-chips Gobbo bolt throwers will make short work of its 5 T5 wounds: even magic missiles and arrow fire can make a dent in it. Alternatively, if you want to divert it, remember the Blood Frenzy rule: charge a unit of Wolf Riders into it, try and make sure the Carnosaur inflicts at least one of the kills, and it'll become Frenzied. Frenzied models have to pursue when an opponent flees as well as the compulsory charging, so it then becomes incredibly easy to draw the Carnie a long way out of position. If it kills a couple of Wolf Rider units in the process, so what? The thing costs at least 500pts, if it wastes the game chasing expendable light cavalry then that's a net win to you. Don't let it flank your infantry blocks, as it will rip them to shreds if it is allowed to: also, if you have a unit you value, don't let it charge the front of them either, as while it will be hard-pressed to win the combat, it is of course Ld8 cold-blooded, and so after two or three rounds it will be able to chew through most of your prize models.

Burro and I are facing a bret liz alliance in the future (2250pnts)
pay attention to chillis points burro.
In case your wondering im taking TK (low magic) and of course hes dwarves. and unfortunatetly i convinced him to take a semi gunline while i have most of the CC.

I think I might redesign my army a bit though. He wont be a lot of magic, since his carnierider and BSB will add up to quite a lot. Maybe I´ll scrap the spirit totem in favour of a warbanner (handy to have!) and ditch the scrolls and get 2 level 2´s in there. having them pretty vanilla wont cost me a lot.

Thank you for your input guys :). This will help me a lot.

Ok, played the game today. Not as much saurus as I expected and no carnousaur. My opponent figured that is was way too exepensive. His army was as follows:

Oldblood (2+ save and 7 attacks)
Scar-vet (pretty vanilla from what I could see)
Skink priest (level 2)
Skink priest (level 2)

2 x 20 saurus with full command
4 x 12 skinks (some with blowpipes, others with javelins)
5 Cold one riders

3 Kroxigors
3 Terradon riders

7-8 Chamelon skinks

My army is as the above link indicates, but with less magic defence and 2 level 2 vanilla shamans.

Well, it didnt happen very much really, all of my combat units (except my gobbos) was in combat by turn three. My fast cavalry pretty much neutralised his skinks so they werent that annoying.

My black orcs were pitted against his saurus block containing his extremly deadly oldblood and it turned out to be a drawn out combat with my black orcs finally succumbing to the might of the oldblood.

My generals unit was in close combat with the other saurus unit with the scar-vet in it. Again, a combat that went on for several turns but I finally managed to break him. Still a bit dissapointed in my warboss who only managed to kill 2 saurus on average each turn (4 re-rollable S5 killing blow attacks should do more!) but his Ld was invaluable for the army.

The BSB had to sacrifice himself to save his unit (because of 2 lousy skinks!). The warmachines didnt kill all that much and magic only killed the terradon unit (and my own shaman!)

So all in all, it´s the boyz that usually shine in these games. The hoppers could have gotten a flank charge on the oldbloods units, but thought it was more fun to squabble instead :angry: . Really getting annoyed by their incompetence!

End result: A draw (17p in favour of my opponent).

Looked kinda grim when he killed the black orcs but it turned once I killed his expensive saurus block containing the scar-vet :). His army is a pretty "friendly" army to play against, but then again, so is mine :). Funny game never the less.

A little more luck and you could have won...

Your Warboss should indeed have killed more than he did. A shaman blowing up was to be expected, but it's a pity he couldn't blast more stuff before dying.

What the hell could possibly have happened? Two mere Skinks who threaten an Orc BSB and his whole unit?!

Cool. That's the best way to have fun for both players.

Yup, hitting on 3´s that is re-rollable and killing on 3´s aswell. To many 1´s and 2´s for my liking. The shaman blew up on turn 2 so it was a shame, but then again he rolled a double one on the miscast table for his skink shaman, so that was amusing :D .

Well, then I shall explain :). I had a fanatic swirling right infront of my unit and those two skinks right next to it. Now, if I would have charged the skinks with my unit he would have fled. This would not have only made me run through my own fanatic but end my move on top of him! 2D6 S5 hits does not sound very healthy for my poor ladz. Oh, and I would have been charged by a unit of kroxigors aswell the following round :P This would surely have been the end of my unit, sometimes you have to sacrifice something for the greater good. And I did actually get charged by those kroxies later on, where he managed to kill 7 orcs with 9 attacks :blink:. His luck was like that the whole game, not to speak of the oldblood (killed 4-5 black orcs each combat round).

Yup, he always tries to make something more unusual with his armies (except for his brets, they are a nightmare).

Hmm, definitely sounds like a fun game, especially since your opponent's list seems centred on fair play (ie standard chars, no JSOD or Salamanders). Good job scoring a draw.

Well, either that or he´s not aware of JSOD tactics somehow :unsure: . Not that it matters all that much, he´s a sneaky git nevertheless :P. Also having a oldblood JSOD, although very effective, can be quite risky aswell. I actually hit his oldblood dead on with a spear chukka in my last turn, unfortunatly I failed to wound. I could have won the game right there.

??????

What was his Oldblood doing out of his unit?

Well, on his very last turn he saw the chance to sack my stone thrower, which he did. Obviously he wasnt all that aware that one of my chukkas was...*insert emperor voice from star wars* fully operational *voice off* :P. But no harm came to him either way so :), but could have.