As if it wasn't exspensive enough gw just put up the prices making it even worse. Since then they have just been trying thinnly veiled cons. They seem to remake an army every month just so they can make money. The new dwarfs even look like the same models. White dwarf prices are high, it no longer gives free stuff and is littered with adverts throughout. And worst of all the newest rip of, "tau empires" as a tau player myself i will either have to buy new models or be at a disadvantage to other players. its just a warhammer 40k version of ogre empires and look how bad that was. what do u think?

Welcome to the boards, killer224.

It is generally accepted (except by GW) that GW prices are too high <_< . The reason this is so is that they dominate the market: their competitors are so few and so puny that they can pretty much set whatever prices they like. This is partly due to meritocracy (GW models are better-sculpted and supported, for the most part, than their alternative counterparts), and partly due to inertia - once GW amassed its substantial lead, very few people even heard of the alternative systems, in much the same way that Microsoft perpetuates its lead over Macintosh (although, to be fair, GW does deserve to be at the top. It puts out a quality product, Microsoft does not :angry: ).

However, I wouldn't complain about the re-releasing thing, myself. Re-releasing army books and rulebooks is what lets GW make a profit - if the company didn't make money, then the game would no longer be supported, the models wouldn't get made, and everyone would lose. Furthermore, new army books/codices and new editions allow the Games Development chaps to improve upon the rules - you just have to compare a 5th Edition game of Fantasy to a 6th Edition game to see how vastly things have come on in terms of the playing experience rendered by the rules. New editions iron out flaws in the old rules, balance things up to any changes of orientation the game might have undergone as a whole since the release of the "original", and also provide us with lovely new models, which are generally an improvement on the old ones - and even if they aren't, no-one's forcing you to buy them. GW keeps most of its old models in stock, so you can mix and match old and new styles as much as you like.

When the Tau Empire comes out, you will have to buy a £12 codex. While I agree that £12 for a codex is too high, I don't object in principle to the idea of new codices superceding old ones - the new codex will improve your army. It will probably give you more options, remove many of the loopholes and unintentional weaknesses in your list, and generally make it a more polished product.

Finally, it's worth mentioning that the Tau Empire is extremely unlikely to resemble Ogre Kingdoms at all :). The Tau Empire is just a background-driven renaming of the Tau - since the original release, their Empire has expanded, and so they have acquired a political name, just like the Imperium is not called "Mankind". The emphasis of the army will still be on camel-footed wierdoes with insane firepower, while Ogre Kingdoms is about obese combat monsters. They are as different as chalk and anti-chalk.

As chilli said you cannot compare ogres with tau as frankly i find ogres have been the best released army recently as they are all big brutish monsters, plus they are different ot what was normal before, plus the models are awesome, look at the ninja maneater :D . Still i can see the Tau empire as a con as they are releasing 2 new models, battlesuits which look the same, and stealth suits which look like a cross between a massive fridge and a transformer.

Hasnt there already been a rant topic under the warhammer section?

look their for my views ^_^

Dan

Those are good points but i am sure that even though you think its expensive you could both afford it unlike myself. and couldn't they just put the new rules in white warf and put the price up of white dwarf by about a £1 would be better.

It always amuses me when threads of this type come up. The original poster says that he is being 'ripped off' by GW. How EXACTLY are they ripping you off?

Ripping off implies that they are charging you for something they havent given you. Have the ever done this? (and I dont mean wrong numbers of models in a box, they recitfy those very quickly).

Nobody forces you to buy from GW, buy from the many independant retailers, who all give a discount and some even give free postage.

I was in his shoes about a year ago. I discovered Games Workshop, got all enthused about their games, bought Battle for Macragge + Necron codex + Space Marine codex + WHFB big red book + 5 fantasy codexes (HE, Skaven, O&G, BoC, HoC). I picked up a Necron battleforce for $80, a Necron Lord, and three blisters of Flayed Ones. And it stopped dead right there. Their last price increase did it - what a shock. Part of it was being a noob, of course, and not having seen a price increase yet, and not having thought out the entire expense of the hobby. I picked Necrons because I liked their models. I looked over other armies, but GW doesn't make it easy for anyone to make an INFORMED decision unless you buy (or are lucky enough to borrow) all of their codexes. Then I discovered how much it would cost me to complete the army. Another battleforce is a decent value considering GW's typical prices, but not very satisfying. Pretty boring, but that's what Necrons are. Stock up on warriors, tons of warriors, with absolutely no customization or options. Pay an arm and a leg for anything else. Of course a squad of Immortals would be nice, but as soon as I consider blisters of metal it's $100 for a nice squad of 10. I can buy a whole lot of alternative entertainment for $100. In nearly any comparison, I have not found good value from GW products. The scenarios I could run with the BfM set were incredibly simplistic and boring - I was expecting meaty tactics. As I recall, they didn't include a single scenario that used both the genestealers and termagants at the same time. No scenarios that introduced wargear options. No scenarios that introduced psychology effects. No details on how to balance forces for do-it-yourself scenarios (hint: you'll need to buy another $40 worth of codexes for that privilege). I eagerly hit their website when they posted additional scenarios FOR FREE - all of which required you to buy Tyranid Warriors, Biovores, Assault Marines, and/or a Dreadnought. I felt manipulated. Within the last year, I bought a board game called Memoir '44. $50, slightly more than BfM. I can't recommend it enough for its incredible value.

I love GW's fluff, and I'm always attracted by the fantasy setting too, and after a year I'm still reading the forums and picking up occasional White Dwarfs. But I can't pull the trigger and buy into any of their armies at their current cost. I have a Ph.D. in engineering and I make a good salary, but GW is uncomfortably over my comfort zone. I compare GW's hobby to golf and downhill skiing. Lots of people do both, but not everybody. They're all very expensive activities, nearly impossible to scale down and enjoy at a budget level. Thrilling for the people who can afford it without angst, but uncomfortable to people who are thrifty. I do buy video game consoles, and have spent at least as much on a Gamecube and my PS2 and their games as I would have to spend on two GW armies. However, I buy the consoles after they have been out for several years, and I only buy used or Greatest Hits/Player's Choice games for ~$20 each, and I have a huge stack of games for the same cost as the GW army, and I've spent hundreds of hours playing them. Some games tick me off at times, some I never complete, and some are stinkers that mismatched my playing style (i.e. Grand Theft Auto - highly touted and innovative, and I thoroughly hated it. Nevertheless, a killer value.) Those systems are great values over their lifetimes, and I can pick racing games and shooters and platformers and get all the variety I crave. I'll play the top-notch games several times over. In terms of accepting GW, I'm also crippled by my ability to pick up any one of 500 video games available for $20 any given day. $20 in a GW shop does not buy a regiment. Two blisters on a vist to GW is a relatively meaningless investment, considering most minimum unit sizes. If I bought a SM tactical squad and an obliterator and a squad of Kroot mercenaries and Vyper jetbike because I like the models and the variety, what can I do with that? The army lists are relatively restrictive about what you can/should buy for your army, and I can't find any way to make GW's hobby relatively affordable. If I can't play the games at my local hobby shop, there is no hobby for me since I'd be in isolation. If I buy my armies off eBay to keep it cheap, my local hobby shop dies. So I'm stuck paying GW's full list prices to ethically support my hobby shop. No one makes me buy GW stuff, as you say, and under the current conditions, I haven't bought any more over the past year. If this sounds like a rant, it's because I'm so disappointed. I really, really want to like this hobby, and GW has a special talent for making me feel like I don't get good value from their products so far. For me, poor value = ripped off. I've picked up some fabulous metal Reaper miniatures and Warmachine stuff, and it costs 50-80% of what GW charges for their blisters. I want to be one of GW's hobbyists, and I'm irritated that the leap of faith and hemorrage of money is so steep to buy into their hobby. I'll admit it: I was foolish to invest about $340 so far on GW merchandise and only have a ~750 point army to show for it. It makes me grumpy.

Regarding White Dwarf, I picked up the last issue because I heard it had a tactica on Necron Lords. It was flat-out weak. Just two pages, but how much value was there for Necron generals like myself? We already know that resurrection orbs are useful. "Warscythes, warscythes, warscythes" as advice? Why? Couldn't they discuss the pros and cons of taking the warscythe over the Staff of Light? How about some value for the majority of other 40K players who play against the Necrons? A good value to them would be tactica to counter the Destroyer Lord with a warscythe. You can get better advice for free from these online forums, and I'd expect GW's own publication to have a higher standard for tactica.

Sorry. Feels good to vent. I still visit the hobby shop and love to meet the people who still love their hobby, and I still envy the guys who have no nerve endings anywhere in the vicinity of their vacuous wallets. If you love GW, you're probably swell people and I don't think you're idiots. The rest of us DO have the problems, though, and we have some difficulty seeing things from your point of view.

If that is your attitude toward the game, I think LOTR would be slightly more to your taste: the only book you need is the newest rule manual, the game is cheaper, and you can field pretty much anything as long as your army is all good or all evil (buy gandalf, 3 gondor men, 8 elves with spears and a dwarf, and that can be an army).

I know it is expensive, and WD does have some crap in it, but on the whole I think WD is the best way to keep in touch with the hobby. I also think it sounds like you are frustrated because you haven't got an army together yet. Perhaps if you did, it would be better. You can always use what you have for kill team games or something.

Final piece of advice: if you want cheapness and variety, don't play the mainstream GW games. Mordheim is amazing fun, and your whole warband can be made from a single regiment box (or even half a box if you're lucky). Additionally, the rules can be downloaded from the specialist games website for free.

Not saying you're wrong, but jumping in with 40k necrons isn't necessarily the cheapest or easiest way to start the hobby. Play one of the other games, or expand the Macragge space marine army.

For those of you following along, SlowPoker is the only person I've read in my entire time living on the interwebs (since 97 or so) who has actually said anything opposing GW and made sense. It's hard pressed to argue against him, really and he was quite honest about it all.

SlowPoker, I'd recommend you email that or a similar letter to their customer service line. It would do far more than the endless moaning on various forums will do in a million years. They may have some suggestions for you.

I do agree with Swordsalot's suggestions (except for LotR- for some reason, despite being a TolkeinKid, I cannot abide the rules they designed for that game) particularly the part about Necrons. I personally abide them as a tactical army, as they are very straightforward and increcibly boring to play against, in my experience.

Anyway- thanks for a relatively intelligent look at GW's policy. I don't agree with you, but it's nice to see a debater with an opinion.

Thanks, Benedictus, for the compliment. Frankly, I expected more responses of the “why don’t you keep your GW-bashing off this fan site,” or “if you can’t afford to play with the big boys, go home” responses. Your advice is helpful and appreciated.

In my local shop over the last year, all of the following have been discontinued due to lack of sales: Battlefleet Gothic, LotR, and Warhammer Fantasy. Only 40K remains. No one bought into LotR here. That’s what always surprises me about GW’s statements about their LotR bubble – there was no bubble here. I grew up reading Tolkien and I love the LotR world, and the movies were great too, but to me The Lord of the Rings environment will always be primarily what Tolkien wrote, and not as much what Peter Jackson put on the screen. I’m ‘old school’ LotR. GW’s game follows the movie (and its licensing requirements) too literally for me to buy into it readily. I’d rather play a LotR-based RPG using miniatures, and I actually prefer The Hobbit storyline over the trilogy. I’d be waging a 1-man crusade to try to revive LotR locally.

I would have started with WFB if it had been played in my local hobby shop, but all I ever saw was 40K. A number of people had WFB armies, but never brought them in. You’d think with White Dwarf’s ability to promote WFB, 40K, and LotR all together, they’d make it a little easier for Joe Gamer to afford an army in each genre. I currently ignore all of the LotR stuff, so 1/3 or more of each White Dwarf has no value to me. WD is increasingly difficult to justify. In each of my video game console cycles, I tend to drop my subscription to their magazines when a new console is gearing up – too much coverage gets diverted to a console / games that I won’t be buying until a couple of years have passed and prices have dropped. I’m starting to feel the same way about WD – too much irrelevant content based on what I could feasibly afford to spend in the hobby.

I downloaded the Mordheim and Inquisitor rules last year, but haven’t committed to either yet. Mordheim has potential, but a few roadblocks as well:
- Heavy dependency on specialized terrain. The shop has plenty of ruined 40K buildings, but nothing medieval. You need a considerable infrastructure built up for Mordheim. No one plays it at the shop, so it would take a 1-man crusade to get it going.
- WYSIWYG emphasis – in a game where you’re trying to advance characters and improve equipment, it’s impractical (or expensive in a needless way) to be expected to modify your miniatures as you upgrade weapons. A lot of WFB miniatures are heavily armored, and few Mordheim characters are armored. I don’t want to buy miniatures so heavily customized to the theme of the game (i.e. specifically ‘Mordheim range’ miniatures). As always, there is more value in a miniature you can use for multiple purposes.
- I’ve read quite a few balance criticisms – primarily the strength of sling-heavy Skaven warbands. This reminds me of the recently-published WFB warbands rules in White Dwarf (also free on the GW website) and the subsequent Our Little War campaign reports. They made it pretty obvious that shooting-heavy warbands unbalance the game. In my opinion, the strength of spells needs to be scaled down to the size of the WFB Warbands units as well. Is a 2d6 S4 magic missile fair at this scale? At least Mordheim seems to match up magic power to warband size appropriately. On another note, I would prefer High Elves as a potential WFB army. HE aren’t well represented in Mordheim (other than Shadow Warriors), and HE are one of the worst armies to try to scale down to Warbands size. I haven’t accepted WFB Warbands rules as a solution to my problem.
- Skaven, orcs, beastmen, vampires, maybe chaos-based warbands: it’s probably fine to use WFB miniatures instead of Mordheim-specific miniatures, and then you’re already on your way toward building a WFB army of that type. (Personal gripe: no spears for ungors? Unacceptable.) On the human side, it’s not as convenient. Generic Empire or Brettonian miniatures don’t depict the differences between Middenheimers, Averlanders, etc. all that well, and certainly don’t represent Sisters of Sigmar very well. Human warbands are about half your options. I’d want a Mordheim human warband to accommodate growth into an Empire or Brettonian force. That’s what GW should want as well – lure people in with a good cheap game, then they’ll be willing to spend more and increase the army size if they like it. WFB Warbands rules just don’t cut it for me, however, as a starting point. Battle for Macragge didn't really sell the game of 40K to me either.

How many of you are familiar with Warmachine? Part of my considerable GW-related frustration is due to what I know about Warmachine as an alternative. I own the Prime and Escalation rulebooks and a Cryx faction starter set (+ Iron Lich). In my mind, Warmachine beats the pants off GW systems for value. In my heart, though, I’d rather play WFB with its classic elves and dwarves and dragons (although personally I’m against uber-monsters). The conflict has me stalled on both systems. GW could win all of my miniature hobby expenditures if they dropped prices just a little, instead of raising the barriers ever higher. My comparison between Warmachine relative to GW’s WFB:

- Warmachine Prime is a professional-grade $20 book that gives you 95% of the current rules, and more significantly, the strengths and weaknesses of every faction. For the full picture and latest units, you’d need to buy Escalation and Apotheosis (~$75 investment for all three rulebooks?). If you do that, you know every detail about your own faction, and every detail about all your opponents. No one can afford to own every GW army book for the Big Picture, and I personally hate the concept of trying to play a tabletop wargame and not know what my opponent’s army might be capable of doing. I might ignore a deadly unit because I haven’t encountered it before, or waste a lot of shooting on a unit that looks meaner than it really is. Everybody has heard of the noob who runs his troopers into CC with a wraithlord, not realizing it’s suicide. Is the player stupid? No, merely uninformed due to the exorbitant cost of knowledge in GW’s gaming system. Trial-and-error, or interrupting the game to ask a million questions about my opponent’s unit stats, is not a way I want to approach wargaming. As an aside, I believe GW should issue one book that contains all the stats and special rules for every army, for a reasonable price. It’s analogous to a D&D Player’s Handbook, and puts everybody on a level playing field. If GW updates the book, then all the armies creep together. If they want, they could publish army-specific books that are solely dedicated to fluff, painting guides, and strategy/tactics advice. Army books should be for enthusiasts of that army, but not contain any ‘proprietary’ information.

- Magic is always part of the action in Warmachine. Every warcaster has spells, and no warcaster totally dominates magic casting relative to any other – nothing like a 5th-generation Slaan vs. a 1st-level gobbo shaman here. Every warcaster gets a variety of useful spells every game, predictably, instead of getting stuck with random spells that might not suit your strategy. I want magic in my fantasy games, but I don’t want to see everything dispelled, or entire armies nuked by completely over-the-top spells. I don’t want to spend hundreds of points in my army for scroll caddies. WM has a balanced approach to magic that WFB sorely lacks. How many gripes exist on this site about cheesy armies based on dominating the magic phase?

- How much do you like steampunk instead of classic fantasy races or gritty science fiction? Personally, GW’s worlds capture my imagination better. Warmachine dictates to you the personality and identity of every warcaster, and troops/units/warjacks are generally not customizable (no wargear, no chaos marks or IG disciplines or whatnot). I prefer the idea of writing my own army’s history and identity, and I like the complexity of having so many options in army design (part of my disappointment with Necron warriors, by the way. Also a reason I haven’t bought High Elves yet – GW made archers a bad choice for the points, and to me that’s not fluffy. I don’t want to be shoehorned into playing the same style HE army everyone else has. You don’t have to be a power gamer to feel that your alternative ‘choices’ in the army list are going to make you look dumb. Every choice of unit should be a difficult decision, based more on taste or style than on point efficiency or dollar cost for the models. Suggest a HE army with Lothern Sea Guard, reavers with bows, and Phoenix Guard, and see how much support you get.) A Warmachine army is easier to change wholesale simply by replacement of the warcaster character, but you’re stuck with the fluff and default configuration of that warcaster. Warmachine lets you use fewer models in a more flexible manner, despite the lack of wargear/magical items.

- Warmachine has negligible artillery / siege engines, no cavalry, no chariots, no swarms, no ‘monsters’ unless you count warjacks, and only 4-1/2 factions or ‘armies’ if you include Mercenaries as the ½ faction. Other than the undead-heavy Cryx, the other factions can be summarized as the lightning humans, the frost humans, and the fire humans. Warmachine has one elf character, and a few dwarf characters without beards. I repeat, dwarfs without beards. That must be what happens if a Slayer ever runs from combat – they head over to Warmachine, shaving their mohawk in shame. Warmachine isn’t too bad to accept as it is, but it is not really a fantasy army game.

- Cost and value of models: this could be debated all day, and some aesthetic judgements are personal. This is just a few spot observations: the Iron Lich is a great-looking model, and cost me about $8. That one guy alone can change the whole vibe of my Cryx army when substituted for Denegra. The Necron Lord is also a great-looking model, but it cost $10. If I want the Destroyer Lord option, that’ll cost me another model (more than $10). One Immortal is $10. Again, I think it’s a great-looking model, but GW forces me to buy at least 5 of them for a valid unit, and I’d only consider a unit of 10 survivable due to the firepower they’ll draw. I like the Wraith models, but they’re more like $15 each, minimum of three, and they aren’t as detailed as the Iron Lich. Are GW’s models THAT superior? Dreadnoughts and terminators are admittedly sweet models, but I’d consider nearly any Warmachine warjack similar in quality and detail to a Dreadnought. A Khador starter set contains two massive warjacks and a warcaster for about $40, the same as a single Dreadnought or a dull (in my opinion) Rhino transport. GW’s prices only make sense if you’re standing isolated in a GW store: compare a regiment box to an armored transport, and they're 'equally' heinous. Put a bunch of Reaper blisters or Warmachine stuff on an adjacent rack, and I’m so stunned by the comparison I can’t buy what I want.

Last evening my wife said “Go ahead and buy what you want, if it’ll make you happy.” She doesn’t really understand the scope of this, I suspect. How many guys out there are suddenly thinking “Wow, that dude just got a blank check from the old ball and chain. He should go for it!” My problem is the “if it’ll make you happy.” I can’t be happy about the purchase unless I believe the price was fair. Fair is always judged in comparison to alternatives.

Just to say, I think you may be misinformed about the "cost of knowledge" under GW systems.

Essentially, in any system where you have >12 armies, a demand for personalisation capacity in each army, and a complex basic ruleset, as in WH, you will never be able to cram all that info into two to three books. Add in the fact that they need to be able to continuously update the background stuff, and you see that a "Player's Handbook" approach is pretty unfeasible.

However, you don't need to buy every book to play WH on an "even playing field". I currently own two army books: Lizardmen, and Bretonnians, the two armies I actually possess. And I flatter myself that I don't get conned whenever I play. This is because of two things:

1. Your opponent has the army book you want to look at, and it's pretty much accepted as "not allowed" to refuse to show your opponent a rule they don't understand, or a stat they don't know. There are convenient and well-laid-out summaries in the back of each book, which give you all the stat info about the army, and the names of the relevant special rules for each unit, and the contents are generally detailed enough to let you find whatever you're looking for with a minimum of hassle. After a few years' gaming, I've got to the point where I don't really need to ask to see my opponent's books: I know what they've got, because I've faced them before. However, even a newbie can just ask "What's a Wraithlord's combat stats?". Either your opponent tells you with the utmost of ease, or he refuses/lies... in which case you have a problem with your opponent, not the game.

2. Selecting an army is relatively easy with no expenditure at all. From my experience, most of the chaps at GW are very friendly, and the kind of people who, if you're polite and they're not busy, will happily sit down and explain to you the pros and cons of any and all armies you are considering. They'll probably not only let you skim through the AB to see if you like the army before you invest, but actually take it down from the shelf and show you what they think are the most important things. They're all hobbyists, as well as employees - not only is it in their interests to get you into an army you'll stick with (and thus buy more models), but if they get you into an army you enjoy, then they probably net themselves some more opponents, too. Furthermore, the 'net has a huge abundance of resources for selecting armies: you can download .pdf stat summaries for most of the armies from the GW website, you can read background summaries on the same website, and there are GW-run forums as well as others such as this one that you can visit for advice on which army would suit you. All this is provided free of charge. On the American GW site, I think there is even an article called "which army for me?" or something along those lines, with a handy chart showing tactical strengths/weaknesses and background info for each army. I did not buy the Bretonnian army book before I decided to collect Bretonnians: I decided to collect Bretonnians, then I bought the army book.

This is not meant to be a rebuttal of any kind - just pointing out that you may have made some mistakes on the quantity of paper you need to buy to play this game. GW are actually pretty good at making sure you don't completely waste your money... people who splurge and then stop are a poor investment compared to those who get into the game, and provide a constant cash flow.

Another point in regards to one of your complaints is that the Mordheim range of models is easily useable in WFB games, at least for the most part. Generally the character options in armies lines up reasonably well with the models available, so it's not a big problem to switch them back and forth between systems.

Honestly, I find that the Mordheim models are better quality a lot of the time, as well.

And if you don't like the way GW runs its business, there are always other alternatives for similar games. Confrontation is one that I'm personally rather taken with, and I know that there are a few others around as well, generally for at least a bit cheaper than GW.

You have a good points, LordChilipepa, but I’ll expound on my previous post anyway. Certainly, my desire for a book on all army units is one of those “if I ran GW” ideas, and I don’t expect it to be the preference of all players. GW is like a religion, and I’m in a different sect than the majority. For example, I won’t put proxies or unpainted models on the table, I enjoy cleaning and assembling the models more than painting them, and I might put more value on the mental preparation for a match than many other people. Information is something that has a lot of value to me. Just examples of where my priorities lie, because various GW hobbyists may put their priorities elsewhere. In my personal case, the information in the army books is just about as important an issue as anything else in the hobby. I can recognize I’m probably out on the fringe in this respect, and other players make their leap of faith into new armies with less analysis. I don’t think I’m totally alone, though, or absolutely unreasonable.

If I were to schedule a match against your Lizardmen or Brettonians, and if I had those army books, I would most likely review your army as well as my own prior to our match. Partly because I like to be competent and prepared, but also as a courtesy to you. The more questions I ask, the more interruptions to your game. Swear to God, if I didn’t know anything about your army at all, I’d be tempted to interview you for 20 minutes before I’d feel ready to start playing. It is possible for anyone to learn about other armies through extensive experience, internet forum research, red shirt assistance at a GW shop, other players, and mental acuity. I can’t get the information I want from GW’s web site, however. They’re too stingy about the information I want, and their select-an-army guide is too shallow. My closest GW shop is more than 3 hours away, so that is not a practical resource for me. I just want my groundwork laid out on a shorter time scale than years of experience, more directly than shotgun internet queries, without costing $260 for 13 army books. My gut/mind/soul cannot understand why this information, so critical to my personal enjoyment of the game, is so expensively packaged. You don’t consider the information necessary. I don’t consider the information absolutely necessary either, but it’s something I want rather keenly.

Is the book I envision feasible? As I see it, the information I really want is less than half the content of the existing army books. I don’t need to see a map of Lustria to play against lizardmen, or read an Arthurian legend to play against Brets. The parts of any army book that affect my gameplay would be the unit descriptions and stats and upgrades, army special rules, magic item list, special schools of magic, and let’s include any special characters including their fluff paragraphs, even though they’re uncommon. In the five army books I own, I counted 29 to 44 pages devoted to information that actually affects gameplay, out of the 80 (112 for HoC) pages in each army book. My average came out to 36 pages per army. 36 pages times 13 armies takes 468 pages, and that’s certainly bigger than a D&D Player’s Handbook. I underestimated its size originally. The big red book is 288 pages, so I’d need something about 60% bigger. I got my big red book for $35 – is that the going rate? Let’s say this bigger multi-army guide would cost $60. I’d gladly pay that in lieu of $260 for 13 separate army books (1040+ pages). Basically, I want the right to buy $117 worth of game-relevant army information separate from the $143 worth of fluff. And since this is my fantasy, I’m going to claim I should get it for about half its $117 current cost. I’ve recently browsed GW’s complete miniature catalog. GW has produced a hardbound full-color book big enough to be my army guide, and they sell it for about the same price as the big red book. I’d say the book I’ve suggested is 100% feasible and affordable, but readily accept that veterans might not want it as much as I do. After I’ve picked an army for myself, I’d probably be willing to buy an 80-page army book full of fluff stories, maps, painting guides, tactica, and photos in addition. I shouldn’t need that stuff for the other 12 armies I don’t collect yet.

I started with the HE army book because I thought I wanted that army, after using most of the resources you suggested (except direct red shirt advice, due to no local GW store. My LGS owner and local players were as helpful as they could be, and for a time I had free access to most army books.). After reading it carefully, though, I started to have doubts. Then I bought the O&G book, and I got doubts about that army too. Each time I buy an army book, I discover a reason to look further. There has never been a case where the fluff in the army book put me off collecting the army – it’s always been some detail about the army list, or unit costs, or upgrade options. It’s always the stuff I wanted to see in the book I’ve proposed, always the stuff GW will not allow people to divulge over the internet. Sometimes I learn I’d have to field expensive metal models I’m ambivalent about (Looks do matter. Why pay these prices for models I don’t like?), or I the models I really liked are not compatible with a reasonable army list. The advice from other players and internet sources has not been sufficient for me, given GW’s ability to suppress sharing of their copyrighted material. I am currently also curious about Empire, Ogre Kingdom, and Brettonian armies, but I’m certainly not going to commit to any without a detailed study of their army books. I’m not typical, but I’m not unique either. There have to be other people who have been put off collecting an army, or wasted money on the wrong army and quit, due to similar beliefs.

I’d like to keep harping on value, if you'll forgive it. For comparison, Privateer Press publishes Warmachine Prime for $20. Prime is a 200-page full color book. Fluff, unit descriptions, rules, pictures; 2-1/2 times the content of a single GW army book for the same price. I don’t mind the relative cost of the mostly black-and-white WFB rule book, but I do mind the value of GW army books. It wasn’t particularly difficult for me to choose Cryx as my Warmachine faction despite a total absence of other players or press gangers (MW red shirts) in my local area. GW has competitors, albeit much smaller operations, but they’re showing what can be done.

I do have difficulty making decisions. I tend to be overly analytical, when I can afford the time or collect the data. Unable to make a leap of faith? Nope. I’ve bought into marriage, children, mortgages, and job changes based on little more than gut feel. I’ve happily spent $360 on a mountain bike while a subsistence-level grad student, bought cross country skis I can only use every other winter, $280 on rollerblades, bought a kayak I’ve put on a river once, and I’ve been satisfied with every purchase. I’ve never been better able to afford GW games at any point in my life than today. Unfortunately, the Necrons and the WFB army book purchases currently feel like flat tires, no snow, one rollerblade, and no paddle in comparison. There's something very weird to me about the undeniable attraction of GW games versus the dirty feeling and lack of satisfaction I've found. Who has a dwarf/elf/minotaur/knight/manticore classic fantasy miniature game good enough to let me singlehandedly recruit a pool of local players?

Vriishnak - I'll take another look a Confrontation. Last time I looked, their English translation was rather painful to decipher. Some beautiful miniatures, but aren't their dwarfs a little strange? No one locally plays Confrontation - another 1-man crusade to recruit other players. I'd have a better shot at Mordheim.

Ar, well, that is the problem - a significant part of GW's policy is to do with the fact that they assume you are buying your stuff mainly from a GW store. The nature of the Workshops is actually a factor in the price, and if you have to get all your stuff from an independent stockist or mail order, then the value is further depreciated (further, because I do definitely agree that it's already overpriced).

Recent translation of Confrontation has been spot on, as far as I've seen - I've got a functioning warband of Griffins as well as a handful of Wolfen and Lions models, and I haven't come across anything - in the rules, anyway - that made me stop and realise that it was translated from French. The fluff is a bit choppy sometimes, I'll admit, but even that is more than sufficient to convey what they want it to, and honestly still at the level of a lot of published writing I've seen...

And yes, the Dwarves are really, really odd compared to other ranges, and while I'm not a fan of those two forces for the most part, there are still a couple of models in the Mid-Nor range that wow me.

And finally, I've found that Confrontation is a lot easier to get into than any of the WH games, so your one-man quest might not be as difficult as you think. I think the typical force to get started with gaming would run you $100 Cdn or less, regardless of the army you pick. I think I've spent about $70 so far, and that covered all of the Griffins I own, and I've got way more than the minimum required to get some decent-sized games going.

Thanks.

As long as I'm hijacking Killer224's topic, I hadn't realized the brilliance of something he proposed until I thought of it in different terms. Why shouldn't GW publish an entire new codex in an issue of White Dwarf? There's 144 pages of content in my last White Dwarf, and isn't the typical codex or army book 80 pages? It would certainly fit. Obviously, GW would rather sell the codex for $20 than 'give' it away as content in a White Dwarf. Would they actually lose sales of merchandise overall, though? How many players who have given up on White Dwarf would snatch up a copy that included the (admittedly overpriced) value of a $20 codex? GW gets part of the money back in increased WD sales, but I'd generally assume they would take a loss on literature sales relative to their traditional codex policy. They'll probably make it back on model sales, the same way a razor company gives you the fancy handle and first set of blades free, then hooks you into buying their replacement blades. Give somebody the overpriced $20 codex material, and really tempt them into spending several hundred dollars on the army. Say it's the new Tau Empire codex. The more I know about an army, the more likely I am going to collect it. Even though in a previous post I said I'd found a reason to keep delaying WFB armies as I continued to nitpick army books, each army is more appealing after I've read its codex than before. I'm looking for my perfect match, but it might have been Ogre Kingdoms or Wood Elves or Dwarfs. Designer's notes and battle reports aren't sufficient teases to make me necessarily spring for a $20 codex. I believe more players would collect a new Tau army if they had the codex than if they only got the typical promotional stories in White Dwarf. I only go back a year, but if I'd been given the Ogre Kingdom, Space Marine, Tyranid, Black Templar, Wood Elf, Dwarf, and whatnot army books, I bet I'd be buying a lot more GW models by now. Not all the models from all those armies, but a damn good bit more than I've collected so far.

I spent a couple hours at my hobby shop last night watching an escalation league for 40K. Some of those guys adopt, build, and sell off armies faster than I paint a single unit. I think these guys are going to open their wallets to GW regardless, but there's certainly a lot of players who couldn't control their new army lust if White Dwarf dropped free codexes in their laps.

Vriishnak - I see you've got three factions for Confrontation. Is that typical among Confrontation players, or are you particularly into it? Personally, I'm far more likely to collect several small armies than one large army, and that's been part of my reluctance to start WFB or continue collecting Necrons in 40K. I like variety. If I could buy the cost-efficient army starter boxes and battleforces from GW and actually DO something fun with them, they'd get my money. However, these just tend to be starting points for what's intended to be a 1500-2000 point gaming system. I might be hoping for GW's mainline games to be something they're not. Regarding Necrons, I fell for the newbie trap. "Never played 40K? You need Necrons. Easy to paint, forgiving to play." I now think I should have started with Eldar. Who cares if they're complicated to play, and it takes finesse to win? I want a large variety of different units, so I don't have to play every game the same way. It's the same reason I was initially drawn to High Elves. It may be difficult to win with them, but how many armies include cavalry, fast cav, chariots, shooting, flyers, skirmishers, magic, and war machines? Most other armies tend to lack at least one of these elements, and challenge you with unpredictability and/or leadership issues. I'd have an opportunity to explore every phase of the game with that army, if I could justify investing in some unit types that aren't particularly fieldworthy. GW could have lured me in easier if I could have collected 4 different 500-point armies instead of having to commit to a single 2000-point army. I'm not the type to sell one army to afford the next. GW would have made about the same amount of money from me, and made the entry barrier more tolerable. That again seems like I'd be a better candidate for LotR, but I'm not. Don't like the models, can't get into the vibe. If I do get into Mordheim, it's pretty certain I'd build several different warbands.

I've never really read any reviews of Confrontation's gameplay. Last time I looked into it, nearly all references were from painting specialists who bought the models for display purposes. Based on your recommendation, I'll look into it again.

It would be interesting to see GW release a codex online as well as in stores and see how it affects sales. It would mean that people could 'preview' the book if they wanted, but to get serious they would probably have to buy the book anyway (or walk around with a stack of crumpled paper, surely a way to attract lower scores at tourneys).

However, I don't think WD is the place to do it. WD already releases a new alternate army list approximately every 2-3 issues. To lose around half an issue to a single army list would leave the rest of us annoyed. Additionally, WD is nowhere near as tough as an army book: that thing would get destroyed so fast (believe me, I've had my only army list inside WD once).

Well, everyone I play with has started at least two forces, and have expressed interest in a few others. I think a lot of it comes down to a few factors: the fact that playable forces are so cheap and quick to get ready, the ridiculously high quality of the models that just lures you into buying as much as you can, and the fact that the armies seem to be more balanced than GW, at least insofar as I haven't noticed such a distinct rock-paper-scissors effect when it comes to some matchups.

The fact that games tend to only take an hour or so probably helps as well, as you can get a lot more experience in a shorter period of time, leading you to feel confident with one force and move to another.

But yeah, of the Conf players I've talked to online even, there haven't been very many who have been content with only one force, so I don't think you'd be unusual in the least for picking up a few small armies rather than a single larger one.

Whoah long topics* :blink:

All i have to say is that GW products are own will products, you dont need them to survive (well some kids at the store i go to do but that's another matter) so you choose to buy them and no one forces you too.

its good to discuss the prices dear sirs but whats going to happen i ask ?, if we were to write a petition maybe but otherwise i just see it as a bit of a waste of space writing about it all the time, by April there will be another price complaint topic ^_^

Now you cant complain about my honesty :P

Dan

So you're saying that because we can't really change the prices we shouldn't discuss them at all? I don't buy that argument. That would be like saying that underage kids should never discuss politics because they can't vote. I think the a discussion based on the merits of GW and its pricing is very healthy and interesting.

For my part, I do agree that GW's prices are a little ridiculous, but I'm lucky enough to have bought my armies back when regiments were thirty dollars (US) so I avioded the price rise. I don't really buy anything anymore, though I'm not sure what I'm going to do when the next edition of WHFB rolls around... :unsure:

As for confrontation, its a shame no one I know plays, as I have always admired the models from afar. I do live in NYC, so I suppose if I could find a game anywhere in the states it would be here, so maybe I'll check around, though I did say I was done buying new models...hmmm....

i too have thankfully got my army all before the price rises, back when a tac squad was £10 for about 3 weeks, and thats the new plastic ones.

i moved on to a game called WARMACHINE which i enjoy a lot (when i get the chance to play it), smaller forces to start and a lot of fun, well i think so anyway.

As for GWs prices, they do rise above inflation although there models have improved dramatically since RT days (1st ed 40k) but still the jumps have been substantial, for a boxed squad £10 - £12 - £15 - £18 over a period of about 2 years. (correct me if i got that wrong).

I just dont buy GW products appart from rulebooks and supliments, although for me i have most of the fluff oin other older publications. I dont touch White Dwarf at all any more, really not worth it i feel.

Bottom line oif you dont want to pay GW prices, get stuff off e-bay, 2nd hand or choose another company to buy stuff off, that way you allow the other companys to grow and maybe there will be some competition to GW since they have cornered the market.

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I got cut off for a few days there...

I'll probably go to Games Day in Baltimore and make a better effort to try more Warhammer armies out on the table. The first time I went, the scene was too bewildering. I'll also continue to work on WarMachine - maybe it'll catch on at my local shop, and maybe I'll overlook its steampunk background eventually. At this point, I can pick and choose Warmachine models based solely on what I think looks cool, and every model can be used. Confrontation appears to have a similar advantage. That's part of what paralyzes my painting efforts on GW minis. I let myself pick up HE Dragon Princes, a mounted elflord, a Bret lord on horse, a black orc command blister, a Teutogen Guard command group, Crom the Conqueror, a Khorne Aspiring Champion, a pair of minotaurs - waaay too much variety for absolutely no purpose. I have real trouble painting models I can't feasibly use. GW's made enough money off me, but obviously they could have made so much more. I would have collected more stuff, stuff I could actually use for gaming, if they hadn't made the army book prices my breaking point.

I forgot to be honest about one other disadvantage of WarMachine - I'm not totally sold on its Page Five philosophy and the importance of combos. I can appreciate synergy between units, but I wish it had less emphasis on feats and certain spells. Kind of like how I'd rather play Warhammer without tooled-up lords riding dragons or special characters. There aren't many competitors featuring block movement of troops unless you count board games, which use actual blocks.

I also read an interesting thread on another site comparing LotR to Warhammer. I should have given LotR a harder look, since the system seems to suit me better. Then again, it's the minis. No one can really adopt an army if they don't like the look of the minis, can they? Confrontation seems to have LotR beat there, at least from my perspective.

I would imagine you're already aware of this, but if you're seriously looking at getting into Confrontation, this is their message board. I'd suggest looking at the Painting section, if nothing else - there's some stunning stuff in there, and it really highlights how superior their range of models is.

Also, the online store is here. It's free shipping if you order above a certain value, though you might be better off finding a local retailer or ordering from another online store, like TheWarStore, depending on where you're located.

I agree that GW prices are very high, but the thing is, they can afford to run up there prices. GW is close to having a monopoly on the Fantasy Wargames market. Go to any online Wargames store and they will be selling most if not all of GW’s products. The other reason they have the right to charge there prices are because I think there models are better than anything I have seen yet. Ya there mite be a few games with better looking models out there, but I can Guaranty they will not have nearly the selection of GW and they will probably be medal, which is sssooo hard to convert with.
The last reason that they charge the prices they do is because they know that we hunger for violence on an epic scale with so many video games and movies in circulation, and I don’t know of many other games that promise such an epic scale of warfare.
Yes I was drawn into the 40k universe, at the age of 10; I am now 16 and have a 4500pt Black Templare Army, complete with Thunderhawk (A forgeworld module). A 4000pt Ork Speed Freek Army (that a LOT of orks and buggys), a 3000pt Witch Hunters Army, a 2000pt Daemon Hunters Army, a 1500pt Imperial Guard Army (Mordian Iron Guard) 3 Mordehime Warbands (don’t know there point coasts of the top of my head.) a 1000pt Beasts of Chaos army, and 2 Inquisitor war bands, one with 5 and one with 4 models. And am stating a Chaos Space Marines army (currently have 1000pts, on its way to 3000pts.) I have spent over $2,000 on this hobby, and have received some stuff for Xmas. Do I like GW prices? No. Will I keep buying there stuff? Yes. Would I play another Wargame? Maybe, I would have to see good models and a good game system, but I have spent far too much money on this hobby to switch completely, my games will be GW and always GW. Go buy there stuff of Ebay it’s the best place to by from. I’ve found you can buy almost entire armies, nearly twice the stuff in a GW ‘army’ boxes, for around $200, I bought all of my Imperial Guards on Ebay.



Im dislexic.... this is as good as spelling gets.

Eisenhorn, check the links to the Rackham stuff I gave - the selection is significantly smaller than GW, yes, but there's more than enough there to put a large force together for whatever army you pick, and there's new stuff coming every month. The quality of the models puts GW to shame, as well.

I just looked at the title and realised why the low service part?

After visiting other GW stores accross the country i know that some staff can have poor customer service qualities and generally just say get marines or empire etc etc. Then again for all the bad stores we have plenty of good ones, for example visit GW Plymouth in the city centre and you will find they are freindly guys who always help, even though the manager still thinks he will beat me so wont play me, it's bin 3 years *shakes fist* ^_^

Dan

I personaly think the prices should be raised a little more, theres far to many beginners these days. Though prehaps lower the prices on paints because for just once I'd like to see 2k fully painted 40k or Fantasy.

So you want the hobby to stagnate, then? Stick with the core of gamers who have already invested, and have the hobby dwindle to nothing as they become unable or unwilling to invest ever more of their hard-earned money into something that gives less and less of a return?

Or are you just unwilling to take the time to help new players get into it? If that's the case, there's absolutely nothing forcing you to participate anywhere outside of you own group of superior-minded veterans. Of course, you might get tired of playing against the exact same people time after time...

No thats not what I said at all, I would just prefer it there were alot less beginners. There are 62 members at our club 49 Beginners, 9 players & 4 Veterans. Not to mention those that come into the store.

I do around 25 intro games a day but theres so many beginners that all counts for knot. Unfortunetly I have to play beginners so I am truly being forced to play them :( (so unfair). Though many gamers I know only have 2 or 3 armys, I have many & share them so it's not really boring.

And a lack of beginners equals stagnation, doesn't it? How else are you going to get new players, new ideas, new anything? Raising the prices prevents new players from starting the hobby unless they have a lot of money to spend, and the less players there are the less the hobby will grow. Once prices hit a certain point, you'll notice that GW sales will drop and one of two things is likely to happen: they'll start lowering the prices back into a range that the average person who's interested in the game can afford, or they'll bomb completely and we'll see a new company rise. They can't keep raising the prices indefinitely, whatever they may think right now.

Well, 25 intro games a day sounds really excessive to me, even if you happen to work at GW. You said this is a clubm so you should really only have to do one intro game per 2 people, tops, meaning a grand total of 25 games period. After that, the players should be encouraged to buy an army, a set of the rules, and start playing games against each other and against more experienced people. If you're letting them hang around, borrowing armies and being walked through games repeatedly, I'd suggest that the problem is with your club, not with the fact that new people are starting the hobby.

No, not if theres a few beginners left. I just think there is far to many beginners in the hobby right now.

Would you care to refute any of the points I raised, then, rather than simply responding with the same statement you made before?

Not really. I just want to talk not argue.

Talking generates discussion. Simply stating your point does not equate discussion.

So what you want a big long draft? That takes 15mins to write & 5mins to read? My grammers not the best, infact it's real bad & more noticable when in huge chunks.