Since writing the finale to TSB, I've been a tad sad that I haven't been able to do anything more with Skaven... I really got into the feel of the army while I was running it. Recently, I've also had a hankering to try something different to my usual armies: Skaven seem to fit the bill pretty well, as they're cowardly, low-quality, and numerous.

A big disclaimer is that this is just an idea at present: I will probably end up doing nothing, as I would have to spend a large amount of money and paint a hideous number of models to get this army off the ground. However, I thought I'd put the list up, just to see if anyone's interested. It's meant to be a quasi-direct representation of the horde that Richter and Aerandir ended up in the middle of at the end of the RP.

Characters

Warlord Skri
Desolate Blade, Enchanted Shield, Twisted Crown of the Horned Rat
196pts

Narshift, Warlock Engineer
Two Dispel Scrolls, Warp Blades, Warp-energy condenser, Warp-power accumulator.
135pts

Morlock, Warlock Engineer
Warp Blades, Warp-energy condenser, Warp-power accumulator, Death Globes.
105pts

Chieftain Skrab
Battle Standard Bearer, Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat.
Heavy Armour.
145pts

30 Clanrats with full command & Warpfire Thrower (250pts)

29 Clanrats with full command & Warpfire Thrower (245pts)

24 Clanrats with full command (145pts)

28 Stormvermin with full command, War Banner & Warpfire Thrower (377pts)

3 Poison Wind Globadiers (30pts)

3 Poison Wind Globadiers (30pts)

3 Poison Wind Globadiers (30pts)

3 Rat Ogres (150pts)

3 Rat Ogres (150pts)

1992pts total.



The army revolves around one major principle: Life is Cheap. I have 111 Skaven that can be thrown into combat, and they will be pegging it across the board at M5, with the Globadiers and Warpfire teams in tow. Once combat is joined, the missile power lets rip: 9 Globadier shots, 3 S5 flame templates, and one portable Stone Thrower shot from Morlock's Death Globes, plus two Warp Lightnings in the Magic Phase. Sure, I'll kill a few Clanrats, but the units are large for that very purpose, and the Warpfire Throwers in particular have the advantage of using a template rather than randomising. By the time we get to the combat phase, the enemy units I've targeted should be a few ranks down, giving me a starting CR advantage of between 2 and 3 even with the Clanrat units. The Stormvermin provide a central combat block that can actually go toe-to-toe with good enemy combat regiments and win: the Warlord puts out 4 S6 attacks, and the unit has 3+ armour saves in combat if I go with shields, WS4, and a starting CR of 6. The Chieftain goes in the back, making them cause fear, so they only have to win by 1 to cause an autobreak with their starting US of 30. Finally, there are the Rat Ogres, who go on either flank of the infantry line, to scare off light cavalry and to provide some flank attacks to bolster the Clanrats' efforts.

I'd be interested in people's opinions, although there are a few limitations.

1. This is meant to represent a Warlord Clan army. The biting, stabby swarm of fur is not something I'd be willing to sacrifice, so anything with less than 100 dedicated combat troops is probably out.

2. I'm not a fan of the newfangled Skryre stuff. As you can see, I've only used 5th Edition inventions: I don't want to use Warp-Lightning Cannons or Ratling Guns. It's just a feel thing.

3. Drawing on the above two points, I want to steer clear of an SAD. This army is designed to cross the board and engage in combat, which is not something I want to change: the Warlord is a fixture, and the 2 Warlocks are a maximum. The emphasis is meant to be on using speed, numbers, and dirty tricks to overwhelm the enemy close-up, not to sit back and blast.

The biggest problems I can see are painting and modelling (130 models! Ack) although I've been reading some interesting stuff about "dipping" that might be of some use, and the models themselves... the 30 Stormvermin are sort of the lynchpin of the army, and yet both editions have yielded equally hideous Stormvermin models. Similarly, I'm not a great fan of the current Clanrat plastics... huge hands and feet, goofy expressions. If anyone has any suggestions on these, I'd be most obliged... this is the kind of army that if I could just pay the money, click my fingers and have, ready in front of me, that I would go for immediately.

If I did it, I would probably have to expand to 3000pts if I could afford it... I'm sure everyone who took part in TSB knows who the second lord choice would be :)

What the . . . Chili . . . . considering playing SKAVEN?

Hold on a sec, lemme check something.

(Looks outside, and sees utter chaos as the natural order of the world is irrevocalbly reversed).

Nope, not imagining it. I guess I should have read the signs when I saw your Skaven-related title and sig.

(Observes list)

Hmmm . . . . no Ratling Guns . . .no Warp-Lightning Cannon . . . . lots of close-ranged fighty stuff . . . . .two units of Rat Ogres . . . .

A non-cheesy, non-shooty-army-of-death Skaven horde army! Me likes! It's refreshing to see a Skaven army devoid of Ratling Guns for a change! (God, how I hate those things . . . )

No Plague Monks... so the Smelly-Belly connection is eliminated, see?

*shudders at traumatic memories*

Why hello, a new (possible) skaven player, how delightful to meet you. :) And it's quite refreshing to see someone consider skaven for the fluff and background, rather than their 'awesome' capabilities.

First off, the characters, it will be hard to re-adjust any item you have selected due to the fact that they're based off an RPG, which I haven't followed, although I don't follow any of them, so I'll try and give my ideas from a tactical point of view:

I am assuming you also gave him heavy armour, if not, I recommend you do. The rest looks good except the crown, which I have never thought to be worthwhile. Maybe warpstone amulet, or the ring of darkness, the latter would be good if this guy were in the stormvermin unit, as there is a lot of surprises to be concealed there, and the magic resistance would always help.

looks good, no complaints

I would consider giving this guy the tenebrous cloak, with the 3+ ward save, you can allow him to leave a unit for a better throwing position; shame you don't have a grey seer, skitterleap would be perfect for this guy.

I like it, never considered your tactic before, I must try it out.

sorry if you don't know what any of the items I mentioned are, just ask if not. Now onto the infantry:

well, clanrat blocks are sufficient, I would recommend slaves, however that would cost more money, and give you a lot more models to paint.

I have never been successful with stormvermin, although they have been better with a warbanner instead of an umbranner, both have benefits. I would also advise giving them shields, an extra point a model, but worth it.

I can't say much for the globadiers, I have never played with them because I just don't trust them.

Now rat ogres, I went against everybodys advice and went for them, 4 infact, and I tell you now, they're just not worth it. Sure the strength 5, movement 6 looks good, but they just get in the way and miss all of their attacks in combat, and then the crappy leadership kicks in, and then that's 150pts down the drain, they just are unacceptably bad. <_<

If you were to drop anything, or replace anything, I would recommend these units:

rat swarms (poisoned or not, they are the best unit in the army IMO)

maybe night runners (they are OK models, excluding the capes, and also very useful and flexible, best keep them to units of eight with throwing stars, they're cheap, they can march block or be meat shields for your infantery blocks. :D

And also slaves are great, two points a model and the only drawbacks is the lack of armour, WS and LD (which can be made up for using generals LD and rank bonuses).

Hope I helped. :)

I'd have to agree about the shields for Stormvermin: for just an extra pont, you get a 3+ armour save (something that Saurus need to take a 30-pt Sacred Spawning and downgrade to special choise in order to get)

And I can see what Omid's getting at about Rat Ogres: true, they're good flankers, but the enemy player is obviosly going to try his hardest NOT to get flank charged by those monsters.

Thanks, Omid. On your points:

Yes, Skri has heavy armour. Just a foolish omission on my part. On the Twisted Crown: that’s in there for two reasons. Firstly, as a combat general, he needs a good ward save – since he can only get 3+ for his armour, that means a 4+, and so the choice is between the Warpstone Amulet and the Twisted Crown. Being the general, he gives away an extra 100pts if he dies, on top of his (quite high) base cost – I do not want him being blasted into tiny pieces at the end of the game. Secondly, Regeneration is also a severely beautiful ability for a character who might end up being forced into a fight with powerful enemies – you do 6 wounds? I only have to make 3 regeneration rolls, and so from your mighty 6 wounds, you only score 1.5, whereas if I were using the WA, you would be within your rights to expect 3. I fully expect the enemy to be attacking Skri, because he is giving Ld10 to that whole infantry line, so he needs to be properly protected, and the Crown struck me as the best tool for the job.

The tenebrous cloak is a nice idea, but it begs the question of where to find the points. At the moment, the idea is for Morlock to use the Globadier units as cover: when combat is joined, he will leave his Clanrat guards and join one of the orbiting units of Globadiers. As for re-adjusting items being difficult: all the Skaven chappies here were quite minor characters, and their equipment was never detailed in detail :). All the equipment shown here is included purely for purposes of strategy, not fluff.

I forgot to say the Stormvermin already have shields. Another mistake on my part… and I know they’re not a particularly competitive choice, but somehow I feel they should be in there. Not only were the Stormvermin Guards a particularly important piece of the background, but somehow the idea just appeals to me…

The Globadiers are in there for one reason: Enemy elites. The closest thing I have to an elite unit is Skri’s stormvermin, and that’s not saying much. If I end up against a Khorne player or summat, I may end up with Chosen Chaos Warriors, Ironbreakers, Grail Knights, or any other sort of horrid, heavily-armoured enemy to fight. The Globadiers will then serve a dual purpose:

1. I will be able to run a single unit out directly in the path of an enemy cavalry charge, forcing them to hit my main line through overrun and thus let me shoot into combat.
2. I will be able to reliably inflict casualties on heavily-armoured units that engage me in combat.

As for the Rat Ogres – they would be working closely in conjunction with the main infantry line, so the routing thing shouldn’t be a problem – there’s Skri’s leadership to use, plus the fact that they’ll pretty much only be getting into combats that also have a fully-ranked Clanrat unit giving me static CR. I can’t see that they’d be that much different to Kroxigor, who have the same problem when they roll badly… provided they don’t end up fighting solo, then a fear-causing flanking unit on either side of the line with 9 S5 attacks and a fear-causing unit strength of 9 should not go amiss, and should guarantee a break even against reasonably tough units like Saurii and Chaos Warriors, particularly if I can lob a Death Globe or a Warpfire Template in during the Shooting Phase to soften the up a bit. Was your bad experience using Rat Ogres on their own, or as a flanking unit?

On what LONC said about 'em: the enemy will have to try damn hard, as he will also have to catch my infantry line on his front if he wants to survive cc. It's a numerous or a talented enemy that can stop two small M6 units getting round his flanks when 111 infantry are coming in a broad line towards his front.

Slaves I wanted to fit in, as “speed bumps” (so that I didn’t have to sacrifice a Globadier unit in the tactic outlined above against knights and so forth), but couldn’t find the points. Night Runners the same. Swarms I’m not a fan of… aside from extremely supernatural armies, I can’t see why a swarm of rats/lizards/what have you would turn into this frenzied mass of bity death, rather than just running away and coming back later to nibble on the dead.

Oh, I have had both, admittedly the ones on their own (now looking back) were extremely stupid ones to make. here are my experiences:

1. in a 2k game, I cast blood frenzy on them after charging a unit of 4 into a unit of 16 dark elf spearmen, so that's 12 S5 attacks and 4 S3 attcks hitting first on 4's. If I remember correctly, I killed up to two dark elves and then proceeded to run.

2. Most recently, a silver helm unit charged my unit of rat swarms, who unsurprisingly didn't all die in the first turn of the combat, in my turn I flank charged three rat ogres in, and killed two silver helms (they had heavy armour and shields), but alas, the silver helms inflicted four wounds on my rat swarms and had a warbanner, so again I lost combat, and then fled.

Now, I know that it would be quite predictable for the rat ogres to loose those combats. but the thing is, look at the total lack of kills they managed to achieve, when you have S5 attacks, the rolling to hit really does count.

3. oh and on a side note, number 3 illustrates how they just get in the way as big bases and swarm armies don't really mix; again you can blame this on bad leadership and deployment, but it'll happen to you my friend, it'll happen. :mellow: On with the example: a unit of some form of Brettonians charged my rat swarms (see how good rat swarms are? They function as the perfect tar pit), I had almost got a flank charge lined up for the rat ogres, but alas, there was not enough room for them as a forest just clipped their bases, makng them unable to reach the combat.

Looking at your list I can see your point, but you could squeeze a decent unit of slaves by dropping a warpfire thrower, or inspired by experiences of rat ogres, you could drop at least one of those 3 ogre units for both night runers and slaves, or two units of slaves/ night runners.

Hmm... I'll have to think about the Rat Ogres, then. I was aware they weren't the best monster choice (although I do like them quite a lot, just for their personality), but if they are that bad... well, if I do this army, I'll have to buy 'em one unit at a time, and playtest 'em thoroughly before I commit fully to using them. Swapping one unit out for slaves/night runners is tempting, but does mar the symmetry the army's deployment had before...

*Tries to type reply. Devolves into a gibbering wreck in fear*


Just can't get rid of the damn things can you? ^_^

I quite like the look of the list. I can't say all that much because I'm not 100% up to speed on the skaven army, but I have to say you've gotta keep at least one unit of rat ogres. To me, the parts of the skaven attack force in TSB was personified by the two rat ogres, stormvermin guards, masses of warriors, warpfire throwers, crazy warlocks, grey seer.

You've got all that except Thanquol, so don't lose it because of a bit of army effectiveness. If you keep the rat ogres near your battle line I don't see how they would perform worse than kroxigors for anything less than severe tin can opening, which you have the globadiers for.

Good luck with it all. Just.. keep it away from me... when it's done...

*flees*

His name was not Thanquol! He was just... very, very similar.

And the warlocks were not crazy. They were just sanity-challenged.

*waves* hi omid ^_^ , i like skaven for their fluff, i just dont have the patience of chilli for writing really long RPG posts :P .

like the force, also to omid, i think the rat ogres you used died because you charged a unit of spearmen head on :blink: , remember rat ogres are tough but they cant take on a whole unit (even though in the loathsome ratmen and other sources rat ogres are the size of giants- 3 times the height of knights not the same ^_^ , i will eventually convert a rat giant)

Good luck chilli, if only i could give you a game, the best games are skaven vs skaven or skaven and goblins B)

Dan

I didn't mean to say that you didn't, I just said a large majority of people do collect them because of their rules.

^_^ Well, I did say that it was quite a large tactical error on my behalf, but the point I was trying to get across was the fact that a unit of 4 frenzied rat ogres killed two spearmen on the charge.

They just really don't have a purpose, if they can't kill a sufficient amount of spearmen, what would make them so good against highly armoured knights? Because reviewing the stats, they are the only combat orientated unit fit for the job, but due to the low WS, they won't easily hit anything.

I can see your line of thinking, and I'm not too familiar with all the stats of a kroxigor, so I'll reply to the best of my knowledge. Kroxigors are far better than rat ogres, for 8 more points, they're S7, meaning they can crush chariots without a second thought and they give an additional -2 modifier to saves. The fact that they can have a screen of skinks and charge through them makes their attacks much harder to stop. And lastly, they have a leadership of 7, superior to the rat ogres leadership of 5, and they are also cold blooded meaning they are much more likely to stay in combat rather than flee, it also helps with rallying also.

OK, despite my last few posts negatively describing rat ogres, I think you should keep one unit. Mainly because it ties in with your fluff, which you started this for. But also for a last resort for high strength combats, if you get really desperate, they might come in handy, but only playing a minor role. Plus the models are really sweet, just fill in the shoulders with a bit of green stuff and they'll look good.

Indeed it wasn't. Not sure why that popped out. Is there a GW Thanquol?

Oh well, names don't matter too much when you're stuck like a pig with white fletched arrows... :P

You'd be surprised how rarely str 7 comes into use (apart from severe can opening). There actually aren't that many races that use chariots, and even then they keep away from you like the plague. Even my JSoD has never nailed a chariot with a wun hit wunda. Only once when it was on it's last wound from fighting saurus anyway.

Screen is a good point, I'll admit. But that doesn't change their use, it just means they're more protected against missile fire. And as long as the rat ogres stay close to the battleline, leadership (while still not like cold blooded ld 8, how I adore thee) shouldn't be a problem.

There is a GW Thanquol... he's Bill King's recurring foil for Gotrek & Felix, and he's an official special character.

Quekrit was my attempt to do Thanquol, but without looking like a clown.

why is everyone comparing rat ogres to the giant babies which are kroxigor (look at their faces) as they ar epart of two different armies :blink: , just on a side note Xarhain why did you say leadership shouldnt be a problem, remember they cannot get ranks so are leadership 6 from the chieftain which will mean they are more likely to panic than not :wacko: .

Dan

1) The old kroxigor models had the baby faces.
Examples:
One
Two

2) Because they are similar in stats, base size, points and role in the army.

3) Because of the generals ld10. Unless Skaven do things differently, the warlord gets the ld bonus from ranks, and gives it to nearby units. Hence why I said to keep them near the battleline.

I'm afraid that's not true... units take the general's base Ld (7, in this case), and modify it according to their own ranks.

I'm considering swapping out one of the units of Rat Ogres in order to get some Jezzails. I could either bump the other unit up to 4-strong, and get a unit of 5 Jezzails, or I could leave it at 3, and get 7 Jezzails. The advantage of Jezzails would be that they would put some pressure on the enemy to come towards me... against Empire, and the new Dwarves, I might get stuck in a rather unattractive "slog it across the board" scenario. Plus, Jezzails can be used to fire into combat and rid me of any pesky armoured chappies.

On the other hand... Jezzails smell of SADs to me. What do you folks think?

Xarhain: with the large babies comment i was reffering to the current krox, but they also look like toddlers too, also dont worry about the leadership thing ^_^ i've made that mistake before.

Chilli: i would say yes go ahead and add on some jezzails for rat ogres, i would recomend you go for the second option (3 ogres + 7 jezzails) that way you have more than enough to take out most armour, so if you say shot at an artillery piece you will probally kill the crew off or even better destroy the machine ^_^

remember "SAD" is more to do with the player than the army, i have played an all tzeench force and got beaten, but the player was freindly so i enjoyed the game. Im sure you are not a bad player of course so dont worry about SAD, unless you get a warplightning cannon of course :blink:

Dan

Wow, I didn't think you would consider jezzails, but they are good. I take five, but it always depends on what kind of army you face.

7 would be great, to make up for the BS, but it would be 140pts down the drain if the opponent didn't field anything worthwhile to shoot at, I have many a time found myself picking off helpless light infantry, mainly out of sheer boredom on the jezzails behalf. But seven would be interesting.

However, you expressed an interest in keeping your money at the beginning of this thread, if this were so, I would recommend a unit of 4 rat ogres and five jezzails, as there is no way of getting three new plastic rat ogres without having a spare odd one, money better spent elsewhere.

Also, I would also recommend to start making 1500 point lists, because IMO that's the best place for skaven. :)

Aye. I'll try and work out a 1500-pointer soon.

Sorry to double-post, but I've worked out how I reckon I'm going to build the army up, and I'd like some opinions, and we all know that no-one reads the thread unless it says "new posts" :).

I've constructed 3 lists: a 500-pointer, a 1000-pointer, and a 1500-pointer. Each uses almost all the models from the previous one, and only the 1500-pointer includes models which are not featured in the 2000-pointer.


Border Patrol List

Clawleader Garskrit (Chieftain)
Heavy Armour, Halberd, Foul Pendant
83pts

25 Clanrats, full command
150pts

Warpfire Thrower
75pts

3 Rat Ogres
150pts

4 Poison Wind Globadiers
40pts

498pts



1000pt List

Chieftain Skri
Twisted Crown of the Horned Rat, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon
103pts

Warlock Engineer Narshift
All the warlock doohickeys (no pistol)
2 Scrolls
140pts

Warlock Engineer Apprentice Morlock
All the warlock doohickeys (no pistol)
Death Globes
110pts

30 Clanrats, full command
175pts
Warpfire Thrower Team 75pts

24 Clanrats, full command
145pts
Warpfire Thrower Team 75pts

2 Poison Wind Globadiers 20pts

3 Rat Ogres 150pts

993pts



1500pt List

Chieftain Skri
Twisted Crown of the Horned Rat, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon
103pts

Warlock Engineer Narshift
All the warlock doohickeys (no pistol)
2 Scrolls
140pts

Warlock Engineer Apprentice Morlock
All the warlock doohickeys (no pistol)
Death Globes
110pts

30 Clanrats, full command
175pts
Warpfire Thrower Team 75pts

30 Clanrats, full command
175pts
Warpfire Throwe Team 75pts

24 Clanrats, full command
145pts
Warpfire Thrower Team 75pts

3 Poison Wind Globadiers 30pts
4 Poison Wind Globadiers 40pts

3 Giant Rat Packs 90pts

3 Rat Ogres 150pts
7 Jezzails 140pts

1493pts

HAHAHAHA I only just noticed that now, classic, those models are -rubbish- (snorts in unbridled derision).

Like it chili. Can't say too much not knowing skaven too well, but I know the border patrol would be something I'd be goddam scared of.

wow, a lot information to absorb in one post, but here's what I make of it:

Looks good, but I would recommend giving your chieftain a warpstone amulet. I know you said you didn't fancy your general dying at the end of the game, but that was in 2k, where the general costs a good bit more. A shield wouldn't hurt him either. ;)

I would say you were quite brave fielding three characters in 1k, and there is an outside chance of being called cheesy if two of those characters were warlocks, which they are. I say drop one, preferably the one wityh the globes, they aren't that good anyway, and you could probably squeeze in another clanrat unit for that price, or maybe slaves and other nice things, mainly just to bulk up the army because at the moment, it looks really small. -_-

looks fine, no real complaints here. Solid infantry, all I would recommend is to give your warlocks pistols if possible, thay are actually quite useful for stand and shoot reactions against cavalry etc.

Hope I helped :)

You're probably right about the 1K list... if I dropped Morlock and scrapped Narshift's gear (making him purely a dispel caddy), I could get myself another unit of 24 Clanrats. I'll look into that one...

I just realized there is ONE thing you're lacking:

SLAVES! I mean seriously, you can always use cheap cannon fodder. You can always use them to set up flank charges or draw enemy units into traps. And, with horde armies like Skaven, it never hurts to have multiple ranked units.

EDIT: Wait, never mind, I just read your post about not having the points for Slaves.

Aye, slaves are tempting... but then, I don't think there's anything I'd be willing to drop for them. Furthermore, for a slightly higher cost, Giant Rats give me essentially the same unit, but with M6 (:eek:)

Edit: Just read your edit. Let's just forget about it all round, then.

yeah i can see your thinking chilli but then again they are one of the best skaven units, still whatever you have most fun with ^_^

Dan