Heres the list:
Count: Lv2, CotR, SG
Thrall: SG
Necro: Lv2, DS
Necro: Lv2, BP

23 zombies, mu
23 zombies, mu
5 ghouls

16 grave guard: halberds+shields,
full c., BotB
10 BK: full c., warbanner
10 BK: fullc.

banshee

2001pts

basic tactic of knights on the flank and tight formation. Expect some magic but no archers and prob a couple of bolt throwers. I went for few units to try and get first turn. Thrall+count in zombie units (4-4-4-4-4-4) whilst 2 summon ghouls will hopefully take out the shooting.

Thanks in advance.

Drop below 2001. It's convention. A 2000pt game means that and no more, step-not-over.

The list looks as hard as any VC list can be, even with the grave guard thrown in to make it that bit softer. You can make the list truly evil by scrapping the grave guard, which are incidentally useless, and adding much more support. 3x 5 Wolves and 2x 3 Bats, and 2 more units of 5 Ghouls, will go a long way to making your opponent glare at you for being "cheesy".

Which is what you want, isn't it, with 2x 10 Black Knights? :D

hmm you dont have to drop below 2000pts, unless you are in a tourny, generally most players are happy with around ten points over max, just a bit more fair is all ^_^

the black knights are quite a points sink IMO but i suppose they do pack a punch on the charge, the only thing i am wondering is your lord strigoi as well as you have said so but im just curious? also what is COTR, i know its a item but i cant think which one.

stilll good luck :thumb:

btw why is the list designed against HE for?

Dan

COTR = curse of the ravenant I belive it is ^_^

a nice list as been said, but one thing struck me. neither your count or your thrall has iron sinews? that extra point of strength is very valuable. Also I dont see any standards on the zombies, static combat resolution is very important for VC as the individual zombie is utter crap in close combat :P so standards there would be useful.

yes but is it worth having them when you lose the unit and they gain the standard? still you dont really need a standard with zombies as they are going to die anyway so whats one extra death, still thats my opinion ^_^

Dan

yes but you have to wipe out the entire unit in order to get the banner and since you can always raise more, then it´s not as easy as it seems. zombies are there to provide static CR and a banner is one of those things. the vamps will handle the fighting :)

To all: S5 kicks against high elves: wounding on 2+ and no foot troops having a save (well, o.k. spearmen if they sacrifice their spear ability) which is why I ask:
Derfel: whats so crap about grave guard? the BK are just there to win the flank combats because in my opinion this is where people lose against high elves (well and the devastating magic and shooting). I'm playing a (competative) mate so he won't care about the beardyness of the BK or the point over (but still very fair points that I would change if I went to a tourny). i personally agree with Farsight about zombies and standards because if a unit dies it can be a serious points drain and for the 2 zombies (approx) it costs in two turns you should be able to raise just as many back up but I see your point and don't disagree with you (its just my preferance).

Thinking more carefully about the BK they do seem harsh: what could I change them for (another skelie block with a necro with Talon of death)? Thanks again.
I'll tell you how the battle goes if you want.

Yes please, of course batreps are always welcome, though this forum is somewhat quieter than most. :)

No need to change the Knights if your opponent won't mind. 2x 10 Black Knights is one of the most potent things you can do with the VC list. It's just outright powerful. Still, you need the support for those units, whcih is why I'm recommending wolves, bats and more ghouls, or perhaps 2 out of 3. Your choice.

Regarding Grave Guard?

I love Grave Guard -- fluffwise. I love the idea of an elite bodyguard on foot. If Drakenhof Guard weren't 1) so bloody expensive points-wise and 2) so damn hard to convert, I'd happily field a unit of 20 for Lefred von Carstein.

But in Warhammer Fantasy 6th Edition, as it stands, elite infantry are the worst unit type in the game. Grave Guard are better than most because they're Undead and therefore damn hard to crack, but even so, there's better things to do with your points. That's why I said the presence of Grave Guard in a list makes it friendlier, especially when you've fielded it in the worst unit size possible for elite infantry. ^_^

Here're the reasons. What's infantry for? What can infantry do that other unit types can't?

The answer should be obvious to you: have rank bonus and numbers. Static combat resolution is the forte of infantry, more so than their ability to generate CR through combat. As will be obvious if you try to fight out a combat between 20 Swordsmen and 24 Goblins. That combat is likely to last a very long time indeed. The casualties caused make it seem like they're slapping each other with fish.

Now, what are the characteristics of Elite Infantry?
1) High cost
2) Killing power slightly superior to average infantry

High cost immediately diminishes the usefulness of Elite Infantry with regards to the first function of rank bonus, due to the concept of diminishing returns. An extra rank of Goblins costs 8pts. The same extra point of rank bonus for Grave Guard costs 52pts (with shields). Immediately you see the problem?

Needless to say, cost affects numbers too. For a single unit of 20 Drakenhof Guard, the opponent could field 5 units of 30 Goblins at least. A Skaven player can field 3 units of lowly Slaves and 3 units of lowly Clanrats. In a battlefield situation, where you have your single unit of Drakenhof Guard facing off against these odds, who do you think is in the winning position?

Now the killing power of the unit is supposed to compensate for all this. But does it? Do the maths, and you'll find out: generally, no.

My personal analysis is, that this is due to the vagaries of the To Hit chart. I'm not saying it should be changed: I'm simply saying that as things currently stand, Swordmasters don't get to be as superior as they are in the fluff, because WS 6 = whoop de doo da, when you hit both a Chaos Warrior and a Gnoblar on 3+, and everyone from a lowly Spearman upwards hits you on a 4+ still. Elite Infantry cannot deal enough damage to compensate for the twin problems of low numbers and diminishing returns.

Expanding this discussion a little, infantry as a whole are given the short end of the stick in Fantasy, compared to, say, heavy cavalry. Low movement immediately restricts their role on the battlefield in this game where Movement is the prime stat. For common infantry, this is less of a problem: they are better able to play a static role due to their larger numbers, which means they can help protect each others' flanks and cover a wider area, presenting a solid battleline.

Elite Infantry have to get somewhere in order to make the best use out of the marginally better killing power that they're paying tons for, and with the average M4 that's very hard to accomplish.

VC are far better off with the cheaper core infantry, which also happen to be reraisable. A unit of Grave Guard will be hard to destroy, yes, so can be a points bank if you wish, but that isn't the best way to play if you want to win big.

Your army has 2 uber killy units and some uber killy characters. Fill out the gaps in your army and take support. You have 2 big units which are terrific at generating static CR for whenever it's needed. Sacrifice the Grave Guard, and put in the support units you need.

very well said there Derfel ^_^ I agree with you, but I still field a unit of grave guard. expensive yes, usually die,yes, but as I play an infantry based army with lots of units then the grave guard can be a nice addition to this. also in an infantry based army they do fullfill a role, as a unit that can stand on its own without character support. also they are missilefire magnets but are still pretty resilliant against it with their T4 and 4+ armour save. saves your other units. also the models look cool ^_^

but I see what you are getting at by not fielding them in an army like this :)

Ok, fine and good, but don't take 16! :P

I usually go with 20 so that´s not even an issue ^_^

hmm i still dont agree with you derfel on that one, elite infantry arent to say the worst infantry in the game, only chosen chaos warriors ^_^ , still this force needs the grave guard as a unit to help hold the battleline when the charges hit home, plus they can defend themselves pretty well when needed especially when using shields, 3+ save- ouch. also the points can be found as many players seem to use skeletons (why i dont know) and seeing as it's just zombies then more points are spare.

remember dwarfs are predominantly elite infantry and they arent rubbish, especially when you charge them with skaven.

Anyway back to the topic

Dan

Dorfs before the revision that gives them new toys and options were considered one of the lowest-tiers armies ever. I know there's a sticky thread up here somewhere where I myself rant about all the stuff the old Dorfs could do, but in a tourney setting where you can't tailor to your opponent, or even amongst friends who've agreed not to tailor lists, Dorfs were the most boring and tactically one-dimensional armies to play. Playing with or against them was no fun, and the Dorf player could hardly ever win big, if he won at all!

And why was this? Precisely because they had nothing but M3 infantry, regardless of Relentless.

Now they have tricks that negate the opponent's clever out-maneuvering (not very difficult still against M3 infantry) by making a unit suddenly turn into a square with no flanks or rear; they can affect the movement of enemy units with an effect that is undispellable; they can make up to half the army move forward 6" in Turn 0; and their main march-blocking tool that was and is the most maneuverable thing in their list is now far less vulnerable than before (the Gyrocopter).

All these now make them a competitive list, but low Movement *still* hurts them. The diminishing returns still affects them, and when you charge a unit of Dorfs in the front with Clanrats and the flank with Slaves the Dorfs are still going to lose. 2 Goblin Chariots and 30 Goblins all in the front are still going to beat a unit of Dorfs.

And finally, precious few elite infantry out there are Dorfs or Undead. Last I checked, only the Dorfs were Dorfs, and only Tomb Guard (which are extinct) and Grave Guard (which are less extinct) were Undead. ^_^

As for Skeletons, people take them for the better armour and the unit champion. Both good reasons, the former more so than the latter. Which is why Sylvanian Militia are a lot less preferable to Levy.

If you want the Graveguard to defend, don't make them schizophrenic. Otherwise, they become Lothern Seaguard, one of the worst 6th ed jokes ever. Either gear them up to kill, or to survive. Trying to do both is taking valuable points away from the rest of the army.

And please do what Tyrion does and take them in good numbers! :)

O.k, what-ever you say. To be honest I wanted your opinion (generally what forums are for) and not a nerdy: you must do this response. I won the game and funnily enough, due to the grave guard (so much for non-flexible grave guard). Grave guard with halberd are way underated: strikiing first they can pretty much kill anything and thats what they did. To weather the storm of shooting their shields came in hand and the chariot and silverhlem charges they recieved were taken quite easily. He took (just incase you wanted to know):
AotG Prince (S7+SM)
x2 mages with 2 DS each, 1 with channellor
RB commander

24 spear, full c., LB
x3 5 SH

5 ER
Chariot

x2 RB's
20 white lions, standard of balance

I used my BK's on the flanks to make it an interesting game and my army did ok. 2 grave guard survived, banshee, as did my thrall, necros, 2 zombie units and both BKs. The countdied from killing blow (which I forgot to regenerate individually but didn't matter anyway).

Good going on the game.

But tell me: do you prefer a generic "I think this list looks quite nice/not very nice, but dats juz my opinion" opinion, or do you prefer a more considered response, which is based on mathematical calculation and logical reasoning? If you shun the latter as being "nerdy you must do this", then you're not looking for help at all, and you're free to ignore me, because help is what I offer. If you want pointless, 2-line comments, then that is not what I offer.

It's a very weak HE list, btw, and still only 2 grave guard survived. You really could've done even better than you did. Almost nothing is entirely useless in WHFB, but some things are just not as good as others. That's all I was ever saying.

Oh, btw, killing blow can't be regenerated. Do you mean Ward Save?

Now correct me if im wrong but i thought regenerate allowed you to heal wounds from killing blow as under regeneration it says roll a dice for each wound suffered and on a 4+ it is healed. i know it says on ward saves are allowed but its on eof those loophole rules, why many allow a regen save against KB is that it only counts as one wound so if you fail your gone ^_^ .

i believe when blood dragon said no nerdy comments or the like he meant ones which tell the player what to do and because its the best way to win battles, im not directing this to derfel in particular its just some players prefur advise on what to take and why over calculations on whats the best chance to win- winning isnt everything, its how you won that counts B)

Dan

No, Killing Blow can only be nagated by a Ward Save, alas, alas. Many has been the time that my Regeneration-wielding Strigoi has been felled by Killing Blow, unable to do anything about it. There's a clarification about it somewhere, but I don't know the reference off the top of my head.

Cheers,
DLJ

Derfel: half a page is dictotorial, but I know your trying to help and you want to make your opinion known and backed-up.

DLJ: Oh, my strigoi would have died anyways, ahh well.