What are your thoughts on the new Army of the Cairns list in WD 310?

Here's what I think: other than the fact that it HAS to be led by Heinrich Kemmler, it's still an okay list -- you get to use Skeletons with GWs, ranked-up ethereal Glooms to block LOS, flying chariots, tough close combat troops (Barrow Guardians & Simulacra) and even riderless Winged Nightmares to counter enemy fast cavalry and cause terror.
The only units I can complain about are Ghosts (too expensive for what you get) and Embalmed Ones -- no command group or weapon options, and no armour, just T5. Not bad, but I think Barrow Guardians are more reliable.

What are your thoughts?

i really like this new cairns list it's quite a good new idea which seems fairly orignal. one of the better things about the list IMHO is that they have a barrow hero on chariot, how cool is that? and then i saw the item he can take which means he can fly. and the models for the barrow things on bases fr 65pts are nice. i dont really like ghosts either they seem too likely to die off straight away.

but yeah overall a nice new idea :thumb:

There are some things I don't like though:

-You're obliged to take Kemmler and, I believe, Krell as well.
-Besides Kemmler, you've got no necromancy..

However:

-I really like the shadow druid! Kit him out with that lore of heaven item and he's a potential lvl2 LoH sorcerer with a +1 to cast.. Imagine the suprises!
-As mentioned before, barrow hero on a chariot.. (which can fly, if given the right kit)
-I don't know why, but I just like the barrow guardians..


Darlan

And it has kickass magic items:

-Sky Chariot- flying chariot! Woot!
-Stormsword- anyone in BTB w. a wounded model takes a S4 hit. Nice!
-Hide of Retribution- anyone who hits the user takes a hit on their own strength. Would be nice in conjunction with the Stormsword.
-Staff of the Trickster- may swap one of your dispel dice for one of your opponent's power dice to dispel. Should be sufficiently annoying . . . .
-Charm of Defiance- each one gives you +2 dispel dice. Good if you're facing a magic-heavy army

I'm sorry, but it's one of the worst filler articles in WD yet, the Kemmler list.

It's like someone just wrote this on a paper napkin during lunch because they couldn't find enough stuff to put in WD.

The list is so badly thought out and there are so many glaring mistakes and unclear rules, it's not even funny. At all.

And the pictures are really just random old pictures from old issues of WD and old army books. They really, really couldn't be bothered with this one.

Some of the "kick-ass" are just plain mistakes. That Charm of Defiance? You can take multiples, and they are not stated as one-use-only. Do you think it is reasonable to have 20 dispel dice for 100pts?

The list reads like something cobbled together on a fan site, by people who don't really play the game.

It is just so much waste paper.

you dont like it :blink: , well your entitled to your opinion but i think it's quite a nice orignal list, come on look at the amount of rubbish that appears to come up in White Dwarf nowadays then we get a new army list which is pretty cool.

i admit many of the pictures are just old stuff added in but of course it's different, and how many vampire counts armys have chariot riding heroes or wizrds who use the lore of heavens ;) .

also with kemmler you dont really need that much wizards anyway as hes pretty sweet by himself, you can just cast raise the dead multiple times if you want ^_^

tbh if you think its a waste of paper you are entitled to but i believe its acctually something pretty cool to come from a magizine which in my opinion features fixed battle reports, this may seem unrelated but look at the last one, templars vs lost and dammed ooh look the new army wins, and the one before i believe the wood elves won <_< .

still everyones different

Is the Charm 10pts? Can you take multiples on the same character?

If so... just argh. Then again, as far as I'm aware, since you have to take 2 special characters, you could only ever have 1 hero level character's worth of these items in 2000pts...

...which still means 10 extra dd. Argh!

Then again, the heroes in this army are basically wight lords, aye? In that case, send in the JSOD, and in two fell sweeps of his 4pt Great Axe, you reduce the army to 4 dd... which should allow for some decent killage (Heinrich, meet my friend... he's called Father of the Thorn...)

i believe the item in question is 15pts and i think it wasnt written but i believe it is one use only, come on plus 2 dispel dice each and every turn for 15 (possibly 10) pts no way.

also not too be a pain or nothing chilli but isnt the cost of your JSOD about 180 odd pts, ouch all that to kill a 100pt character :P , just remember that these guys can have flying chariots, flying chariots, thats 2 inches extra than your JSOD im afraid. by the way im not having ago just merely enlightening you of some facts and figures.

Dan

Yes, no way says you, and no way says me, and no way says anyone with a modicum of intelligence, but they couldn't be bothered to write the rules properly.

Just like they couldn't be bothered to realize that a Wight Lord in Luther Harkon's army does not need a magic weapon costing 50pts that gives Killing Blow.

:rolleyes:

I can get a JSOD for 113pts. And flying chariots still have a 90 degree arc o' sight, as far as I'm aware, so that means the Bouncing Saurus can still outmaneuver them... which means he can get the charge on them... which means they're dead (S7! Wheee!).

Sorry, just my reptilian supremacist views coming through there...

ahh but he still costs more than the barrow hero (and more than 4 pts) yes the chariot does have only a 90 degree are of sight but it has 20 inch movement so when you manever for a flank charge where you cant be seen the chariot charges of forwardand destroys a unit.

no need to apoligise as my verministic bid for supremacy is also showing :P

still back to the topic i think ^_^ my fault

First of all,i have a question.Is the army list legal?Every army list has it's weaknesses.And i don't think the charm is a one use item,just think that Kemmler takes two slots and you need one barrow hero.No other lords are permitted and from the text of the charm it says nowhere that different characters can take them (just multiples),so that means you may only have 3 and if youn don't put them to the barrow hero,that means NO other arcane magic items on a 2k list (no lore of heavens,no dispel scrolls etc).Also,you only have 10 PD maximun (including the periapt of Kemmler) on 2k.How does that sound?

It is not legal*, and inshallah it will never be legal.


*legal in the tournament sense

I'm going to have to agree with Derfel on this one. I think the list is pretty stupid, and certainly not well thought-out. I think, for example, that the zombie pirate list is kind of fun and balanced, but this list is just ridiculous. Lore of Heavens? Flying Chariots? This is undead, not some pansy elf-demon-flying thing. I think the list is out of character for the army, and it looks like there was no play-testing or even a shred of thought going towards attempting to balance the list.

Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is, Kael? I challenge all ye naysayers to playtest this list for yourselves and THEN pass judgement on it!
Heck, I just might get the ball rolling buy proxying my lizzies as Cairn-dwellers and playtesting them. Mind you, my army is still pretty small (and not as numerous as Undead), so don't expect many good results from me due to lack of proper numbers and models (how I'm going to proxy a chariot without any chariot models, I don't know).

so your saying it's silly that Vampire Counts can finally use a chariot, which costs 50pts to make it flying (which is a gamble as it's still only 1 chariot)? :blink:

also to make the druids have Lore of heavens you need to buy them a 50pt item, so it's worth it. also i ask you why you think lore of heavens is stupid, i believe you are thinking of the elf or lizard version of a mage smashing the opponent with light from above, havent you ever seen films for example where the vampire turns the sky to darkness and ligthning comes down? this can justyify heavens IMHO.....

the list may not be "Legal" for tournaments i believe but i believe many will still use it outside of tournament play, also this is not a stab at you Kael but the zombie list is just as fun as the cairns list as IMO the zombie list is not really "fun" okay the best thing they have is that beast that blows up when it dies :lol: but compared to skaven they do not know the meaning of fun ^_^ .

by the way this is not a stab at you directly im just useing your comment as an example, i apoligise if it seems at all aggresive as it is not meant too.

Dan

You know, this is why I like this forum even though it's not really an active one. Everyone here's so polite, it makes even The Warhammer Forum ™ look rude and uncouth, premier forum though it may be.

Well, it's definitely a good idea to like, the Army of the Cairns. My beef is with the subpar execution of the idea that's getting to be the hallmark of GW-associated publications. If I can run down to our clubhouse after my exams and borrow a copy of the list I'd be happy to run through that muck and tell you all why it is muck.

In the meantime, my firm and considered opinion is that it is bollocks. B)

well the thing is i always try yo be ploite as i adopt the view of speak to and treat others as you would like to be treated yourself, hence why i speak politely, also it's because i argue alot so it makes it seem less aggresive which it can sometimes ^_^ non- intentionally of course.

cant say i have been on the warhammer forum, i like this one much better from the ones i have seen as firstly you have freedom of speech much more, on a GW official site if you bad mouth (in a polite way even) your off, while here you can discuss at pleasure, as long as you keep to copyright laws etc.

also the fact that many sites i have seen have poor admin and mod's while on this site they are freindly and eager to help, cheers :thumb:

Dan

Can't say I agree with you, farsight. Look at the lore of heavens: where do second sign and portent of the far fit in with Undead? Necromancy death, yes. Heavens? No. Also, with regards to chariots, we have one (black coach) but it is in character. This just goes against VC: we never have had chariots (fluffwise) because our armies were destroyed by the armies of Khemri. Thats why the Tomb Kings have chariots (their whole race was turned undead) and we have vampires lording over hordes of things that they have raised from the ground. How many chariots are buired underneath the ground? Not many, I would wager.

I also don't understand why this army holds any appeal as apposed to the regular VC list. What does it bring to the table? With the zombie pirates, there were cool modelling opportunities, and the list had a really strong and fun theme behind it. Besides, it added a whole new element visa ve blackpowder weapons. Can't see what AOC adds at all.

okay lets see ^_^

well the first point woul dhave too be the lore of heavens. with this you need to remember that it's like the heavens are brought crashing down onto you in black clouds with crows everywhere. if you imagine a vampire clicking his fingers and lighting crashing down to smash his enemy, Manfred Von Carstein has down this in many sources i have seen, such as the end of the Storm of Chaos where he arrives (only for a short while) and the skies darken, try in your mind to relate this to heavens.

also where you say not many chariots are buried, this in fact is not true, if i can relate to the real world(as i believe you meant) many great barbarian leaders were buried with their chariots in mounds, such as the Britons, Asian warlords and Eqyptians. they were sort of buried with their posesions, ready for the afterlife so yeah many warlords did get buried with chariots, their own ones that is.

the thing that appeals to this army is the simple fact that it is different and offers a new approach to VC, you get ghosts (similar i know to banshees but still different), chariot leaders, scorpians (which could be modeled instead as massive undead wolfs possibly) and many other ideas. it provides a kemmlar amy which in my opinion is well thought out, many will disagree and they are entitled to of course ^_^

whether you like it or lump it, happy gaming

Dan

I just get my hand on the WD to have a look at this list, after reading the first few posts here I was eager to see if it was good or not ;) If it's not too late, I'll give my opinon on the units in the list.

Shadow Druids, without necromancy spells is to me less usefull in a undead army. Being ethereal can be of some use.

Barrow King always in chariot is limiting the units that need a fighting character. Should have been an option instead.

Simulacra and Tomb Stalker are basicaly the same thing, but one is a 3+ unit, the other a lonely unit. They are a ''ok'' unit to me game-wise, but I don't like them that much.

Ghost is a bad unit, unrealiable (can die on his own on the first turn ?), and need to be in combat to use is chill attack (if he miss to kill something, wich is kinda easy, he die by combat resolution).

Skeleton at 7pts is good. And great weapon can make them slightly more dangerous looking, and can actually kill if you get lucky enough to have some striking back :)

Embalmed Ones brings memorie of old time with units of mummies :lol: If I was willing to do a Army of Cairns, that would be my unit of choice for that reason :P But I think it would have been better with 2 wound (at 16-18pts maybe) to have the flammable have some use at least.

Unquiet Horseman are basic medium cavalry, and getting better equipement for them (bringing them at 19pts) make poor heavy cavalry.

Barrow Guardians are the basic elite-type infantry that Undead always get, with greatweapon as option.

Glooms are with the Embalmed Ones, old Ghosts in unit :) Though a ''chill attack'' for the unit would have been great, their still cheap, ranked ethereal infantry. The Tormented rule though can get dangerous, and is a big negative side to this unit, as cheap as they are.

Overall, I think there's some good idea there, but like someone else said, the execution is not very good. And it doesn't seems as fun as the Zombie Pirate list was. As the list is, I'm not willing to play with it, but I could certainly tweak it to be more interesting for me ;)

Okay farsight, lets see here:

I understand how this would equate to spells like uranon's or even comet, but can you really see a undead creature trying to read the future via the stars? (i.e. portent and second sign). Besides, if memory serves, vampires are not included in this list, and they were the only ones you used as an example for darkening the skies and whatnot, which by the way is already coverd by the Von Carstein power "call winds:"

On to your second point:

Do we really have any evidence of this in the Warhammer world? The tomb kings really only have their chariots because they were turned into the undead as a race. I mean, why would their be buried chariots on the outskirts of Athel Loren (where, if memory serves, this army has been raised from)?

These are the basic reasons why I think that little to no thought has been put into this army. It just goes to show what a rag White Dwarf is becoming....

at least you have one point i agree with you on ^_^ - dwarfs won this months battle report :huh: , still at least mny subsciption has already ended

Dan