Title: Getting back into the game, and needing insight
Description: Feel free to point out my idiocy!
Kayin - July 26, 2005 05:09 PM (GMT)
After about a 4 year Warhammer hiatus, I've decided to pick the game back up again and start on a Dark Elf army. I've been dinking about with a number of combinations and I think I have one that might be worthwhile for a 2,000 point army. Here's the list and after that, I will post the pros and cons that I see from my standpoint:
Lord:
Highborn on Cold one Chariot with Blade of Ruin and Deathmask- 255 points
Heroes:
Assassin with Touch of Death - 155 points
Lvl 2 Sorceress with Soulstone and mounted on a Dark Steed - 167 points
Dark Elf Noble on Cold One with Hydra Banner - 211 points
Core:
11-12 Corsairs with standard and champion or Assassin leading ( I'm not sure, but can assassins do this?) -120 points
12 Dark Elf Warriors with repeater crossbows, champion and standard - 176 points
7 Dark Riders with Standard, led by the Sorceress - 182 points
Special:
Cold one Chariot for the lord - 95 points
7 Cold One knights, led by the Noble w/ battle standard - 203 points
7 Harpies - 91 points
10 Witch elves with hag and standard - 142 points
Rare:
2 Repeater Bolt throwers -200 points
The total ( I was too lazy to put in who gets heavy armor and the like, but assume everyone who can have it, does have it) is 1997 points.
As far as pros of this army, the biggest one I see is in the COld One knights, with lances and a hydra banner, they have potential to mince almost any unit they can get a charge in on. Likewise, the lord's chariot can do a significant hit, espcially if the Terror the mask gives works (I always try to have one terror-causing unit in any army). The other more offensive units (Riders and Corsairs) each have either speed, or a hero or both to cause a pretty healthy lump of damage, and the warriors and boltthrowers give me a small amount of defensive range to hide behind.
The biggest potential problem that I see is that my army is too top-heavy, and anemic when it comes to rank and file troops. I might have a big punch with it, but it only takes a few bad rolls before I am in serious trouble.
Comments? Thoughts? Laughing so hard you ruin the keyboard?
Ciel Drax - July 27, 2005 07:46 PM (GMT)
It a decent army list and all but i think your putting to much power into the cold ones, but then again they have a high chance of ripping apart units with the initial charge but lets say a slayer unit charges you? that unit is very cheap and will buy a lot of time if you do build it just make sure u position the knight somewhere where they can do alot of damage. and omg i'm so happy i found this forum again! i lost it for like 6 months! lol well thats how long i've been not playinf warhammer. let me re-read the codex and i'll tell you more.
~random whyte guy =P
Kayin - July 27, 2005 08:17 PM (GMT)
Well, what I am mostly counting on is the knights with the hydra banner to get the first charge, I figure if they can get that, very very little would stand a chance of surviving the first round of combat, considering in a group as I have it, I would get 6 WS5 S3 attacks form the nights, 4 WS6 S4 attacks from the noble, and 8 WS3 S4 attacks from the Coldones (provided the banner affects them all).
I also have thought on nixing the harpies and assassin in order to bolster my corsair units, as well as bring in either a unit of spearmen or executioners, how would that fly?
Rogue-Gladiator - July 28, 2005 10:13 PM (GMT)
Not bad for your first list, here are my suggestions:
| QUOTE |
Lord:
Highborn on Cold one Chariot with Blade of Ruin and Deathmask- 255 points
The highborn on the chariot is an alluring idea, and would haveawesome converting potential, but you need to think about what's going to happen if you get hit by any type of S 7 hit... BOOM! The chariot shatters, your lord is thrown from it, takes damage from the throw, and then gets mauled the rest of the way. I've seen a single saurus hero with a great weapon decimate a chariot and the lord riding it- it's quite simple, really. I'm not dissuading you from using it, just make sure your know the risks and protect it.
Heroes:
Assassin with Touch of Death - 155 points
It's an assassin with killing blow, what can I say? Oh ya, give him that extra hand weapon if you didn't yet. Lvl 2 Sorceress with Soulstone and mounted on a Dark Steed - 167 points
In a 2000 point list, I'm of the opinion a single sorceress is not going to effect battle with spells too much. Almost every opponenet will take a scroll caddy to null your magic, and any offensive magic list will stop this single sorceress in her tracks, and you will not have the means to at least slow their magic phase down. I would instead suggest a lvl. 1 sorceress with two dispell scrolls. Just have her hang back and dispell when you need it. Boring, I know, but this one sorceress isn't going to do much.
Dark Elf Noble on Cold One with Hydra Banner - 211 points
Risky. I will agree that this BSB is going to give you one hell of a hammer unit, but... your hammer unit can go stupid at the worst possible time and proceed to stumble forward in a stupid fashion- right into the enemy battle line. Read what I say about the cold ones for a better explanation.
Core:
11-12 Corsairs with standard and champion or Assassin leading ( I'm not sure, but can assassins do this?) -120 points
Assassins can't lead- they hide and the unit and pop out of it when you get charged. Read their rules for a better explanation. If you're going for a MSU style list, this regiment is fine. If you are trying to go for a normal regiment style list, your going to need more men to fill this group out. It looks like an MSU style though, so I suppose it's fine.
12 Dark Elf Warriors with repeater crossbows, champion and standard - 176 points
Nice. 12 is the magic number with Repeater Elves. Consider giving them shield- they are still decent units to flank your opponent with in close combat, when there's little else to shoot at anymore.
7 Dark Riders with Standard, led by the Sorceress - 182 points
Now I'm a bit confused. You have small infantry units, and very large cavalry units. This is completely opposite of the traditional method. Drop this unit down to 5, and as I suggested, take the sorceress out of it- I really don't see her doing much. A block of 7 or 8 Dark riders with no crossbows and a standard is a bad idea, trust me. Dark riders are much better used for flanking and warmachine/mage hunting, and a better set up would be 5 Dark Riders with Repeater Crossbows, and no standard.
Special:
Cold one Chariot for the lord - 95 points
Cold one Chariots are a generally nice addition to the dark Elf force, just remember what I said about the lord in it.
7 Cold One knights, led by the Noble w/ battle standard - 203 points
I usually shy away from cold one knights. There is no doubt that they are powerful warriors (at least on the charge), but... they're stupid. Literally, their cold ones are stupid. this can prove disasterous, as they could go stupid when you plan to charge your opponent. If you're willing to take the risks with the unit, then go ahead and use it. Also, you again have a very stange unit line up, as your largest units are cavalry, and your smallest are infantry.
7 Harpies - 91 points
I've never been a huge fan of Harpies. Maybe shades instead. But if you wanna keep them, go ahead, they are aren't that bad, just the leadership 6 is a bit iffy.
10 Witch elves with hag and standard - 142 points
Up them to 12 for better flanking.
Rare:
2 Repeater Bolt throwers -200 points
Nice. Just make sure you choose your targets carefully... and consider dropping one for another chariot (seriously, the chariots are nice)
The total ( I was too lazy to put in who gets heavy armor and the like, but assume everyone who can have it, does have it) is 1997 points. |
The list isn't bad for your first list, just has some shortcomings, in my opinion. If you wanna use the cold one knights, that's fine, just realize the biggest point sink in your army could not move at all when you need them most. Also try to beef up your corsairs, cut your riders down to 5, or make 2 groups of 5, and up the witch elves. You can get the points for this by dropping the dark riders, downgrading the sorceress, and dropping the harpies.
Kayin - July 28, 2005 10:35 PM (GMT)
Well I thought I put in that my Dark Riders did have repeater bows and you're right in terms of cavalry size. I think I have a bit of a built-in overvaluing of cavalry and chariots from the days of my undead (this was before it split into Counts and Tomb Kings) army of 4-5 years ago, which used chariots and wight riders to literally split armies down the middle. I still relish the thought of knocking out the local champion's top cavalry unit with my first charge (and it was my 'weak' chariot too mweeee :P )
But I think you also have alot of good points in weakening the sorceress and breaking up the light cavalry. I've also toyed with the idea that, alongside bulking up the Corsairs, adding a unit of spearmen or executioners to give my army a bit of staying power and an infantry punch. Now, looking at the stats, the choice seems pretty obvious that I ought to favor Executioners over spearmen in an offense-based army build, but am I in error on this? I like the idea of a fast, devestating offense supported by shooty bits like the bolt throwers.
Thanks for the dissection, VERY useful
Rogue-Gladiator - July 30, 2005 02:47 AM (GMT)
Well, spearmen can be used an in offensive army, but not as you would think. You don't necessarily use them to grind down the enemy and rack up kills- you use them to hit the enemy head on, take some loses (they're the most expendable unit we have at only 8 points per model with shield), but be there to give us some nice static CR while we take it to the opponent in the flank with a powerhouse unit that will cut their numbers down.
Executioners, on the other hand, are excellent at flanking, not going head on with the attack. The fact that they wield great weapons, meaning they strike last after a charge, and the fact that they only have a 5+ save for their cost (11 points) means that they are not a good unit to hit with head on, but so strong and able to take away rank bonuses and rack up kills in the flank that they are best there.
you have to decide if you need more people to hit head on, or charge to the flanks.
Mædhros - July 30, 2005 06:15 PM (GMT)
Check the GW site for the revision.
When using offensive spearmen, I use them in units of 16 with shields, musician, and standard; to be supported by other units (like exes). That unit wieghs in at only 143 points, and has 4+ saves in combat (I use handweapon/shield) and provides static CR for your flankers.
Witches, if you aren't using the cauldron, are best used IMHO in units of 12 with musician, and a hag with manebane. Manbane is very effective at taking out high T models and characters. You can throw a banner on the unit if you are going to use it as a head-on charger.
As R-G said, consider dropping a bolt thrower for another chariot with spears, they really are great.
Raegek - August 1, 2005 08:38 AM (GMT)
Give the DR's RxB's and change the corsairs to spearmen.
If you are counting on your Knights delete the unit of witch elves and get some more knights!
Rogue-Gladiator - August 1, 2005 05:48 PM (GMT)
I really wouldn't beef up the knights too much more... At least not enough that is would warrant you ditching the Witch Elves. I'd say at most, you would want to take 10 knights. Anymore and the unit just becomes too cumbersome to move for a dark elf list. Plus, with the hydra banner, you're already dishing out about 20 attacks (I'm not gonna grab my book from downstairs, but I'm tryingto account for a champion and the noble). Just make sure you get that unit into combat ASAP, so you don't get shot up.