So I have a thought and I want some feedback. I havent seen this idea anywhere else so I am not sure if its original or what.

My plan that Im dying to try is to place 40 archers(the max) in a row(single file) in front of my entire army. I will use a BSB with the Icon of Rakaph in the unit and use Kalida and give them all poison attacks. With the rule the queens command I will shoot the piss out of them with essentially 80 poison shots per turn. The key tactic I am wanting to try is using those archers to block the line of sight for the rest of my army and when the enemy nears using the banner to reform the unit into a large block with the combat res. to back the unit up in CC.

The banner idea I think is different and the kalida/poison thing is just an added bonus. Let me know what you think about the idea and if you think it works or if I should use the banner elsewhere.

Also, can I reform the unit anywhere along the line? That would make this idea even better. I dont plan on this winning tounaments or anything but it would be fun I think. :lol: Its a totally TK tactic which is why I play plus if I wanted to win tournaments I guess I wouldnt use TK.

Thanks for any thoughts,

(ps This large archer unit idea worked for me on a seige since the whole arrows of the asp eliminated the hard cover stuff - my friend was mad) :)

Firstly, if you reform, you can only walk twice your Movemeent distance, so this will go wrong with you.You need at least 2/3.

Maybe it looks good, but remember that it's so easy to destroy that unit.
Your units can't go to him, but he can go to you.

I would just shoot everything at it, and smash it in the front with all combat troops, overrunning into your other troops.

Zephyro

I think the idea is interesting.

Obviously it will only be effective in a defensive army, as otherwise we would be blocking our own valuble offensive troops. With all the (poisoned) arrows flying, in addition to two SSC's, one or two additional smaller archer units and possibly the Casket of Souls, the combined shooting and magic power is immense.

The large archer unit should get the Banner of the Undying Legion to make it last longer. When the enemy gets into charge range, the unit can reform into a block, as you pointed out, allowing friendly units to suddenly have LOS and flank charge the unit that charges the archer block in the following round. Just be sure that the units meant for flank charging arent in charge range themselves after the archers reform.

Nice idea, in fact I think I'll try it out next battle! :)

You have to reform from the centre of the line (where your command group would be located).

Anyway, this tactic isn't new. In fact, I've used something similar to this with my Bretonnians wherein two lances of knights hide behind two units of 15 bowmen. When my opponent is within charge range of my knights, the bowmen reform to open up lanes for my knights. This tactic is very effective. With TK, I think it's even more effective because of the movement spells. It is fun and it should work. You'll be surprised how effective this tactic is, even more so with your TK spells. :thumb:

By the way, 40 might be too big. You should consider the size of the table and the amount of terrain. It's something to think about.

I've tried it in past with 40 archers but i had only 1-2 rounds to shoot and hitting on 5+ even if you fire 80 times (and you need a really BIG hill to deploy your archers) the results are bad (but it depends because i'm disgustingly unlucky :( ).Try your dice a couple of times.Normally,you will score 30 hits,10 poison and 10 will normally wound.That makes 20 hits.If you shoot at heavy cavalry,you will score 3-4 casualties.Pretty bad for a unit that costs something like 450 points and your opponent cleaves through them like butter,don't you think?Not to mention the BSB,he is a total waste of points. :(

I dont think there are a lot of units that will cleave through 40 archers.....Woudl take at least 3 turns i think.

I realy like your idea, but i wouldnt try it in 2 K if i were you, i mean getting khalide, and 40 poinon archers would be like half your army, and considering that you will have to reform in1-2 turns and this will heavy holes in your line through which your enemy can move. But in 3000P with a big amry behind it it wil de good i think.

Backlash wasnt suggesting putting the archers on a hill. Instead they form a long single-file row in front of the army. That way they can theoretically all shoot (though probably some wont be in range of the target), and they also screen away the rest of the army from enemy missile fire and charges.

The cost-efficiancy of archers is always terrible if we let them shoot at heavy cavalry. Obviously they should pick out softer targets, as archers always should.
And they only cost 355 points (with a standard and the Banner of the Undying Legion), which is expensive, but not as bad as 450 points. True, the Icon Bearer costs a few points too, but I wouldnt add them to the cost of the archers, because the free reform for the archers is only one of many purposes he has. Which brings me to:

Though the Icon Bearer is not as effective as a BSB when it comes to their most obvious purpose, reducing the negative effects of losing a combat, he has other advantages which can sometimes justify taking him. His killing blow ability shouldnt be underestimated, neither should be his efficiancy in an army with many constructs. And using him to carry a magic banner (like the banner of the hidden dead or in this case the Icon of Rakaph) can be worth it too.
Im not saying that he is great or anything and usually I dont use him, but I wouldnt go as far as suggesting that he is a waste of points.

80 shots will result in an average of 13 normal hits and 13 poisened hits. Of the 13 normal hits 6 will wound (against T3), so 19 shots will wound alltogether, If we assume a 5+ save, that will mean 12 kills. (Note that I always rounded down). Causing 12 casualties is quite a lot for archers. Even if we assume that not all the archers are in range of the target, eight or nine kills is still a good result.

The point of the large unit size is that the opponent cant cleave through them like butter. Even if he reduces them to 30 by missile fire before he charges and then kills ten of them in CC, there will still be some left after CR, preventing the enemy from overrunnning. Then comes the flank charge with Ushabtis, chariots etc. that attained LOS to the unit(s) that charged the archers after they reformed.

Well,Funky the Elf, having an expensive unit something like 300 points it doesn't sound very goodeven if they hold for 3 rounds killing no one and dying like worms.And the stats i posted were against heavy cavalry.Most of the people play with heavy cavalry if their army enables them to.If you don't have a hill,you will need half of the table to deploy the archers (not to mention the round wasted to reform). Also,about the icon bearer,2 killing blow attacks don't work,even the scorpion with 4 scores 1 per round if you are lucky.Lastly,40 with poison,costin 10 points each,that makes 400 points and adding a musician and a banner is around 14 more points. ;)

You are right that the archers cost more than I stated, I didnt take the points for the poisoned arrows into consideration.

Still I think you miss the point that Backlash was trying to make.

The point of this setup is that the archers are supposed to take up as much room as possible, in order to screen away the rest of the army and protect it from charges and missile fire.

Thanks to the Icon of Rakaph that allows a free reform no time is wasted at all.


About this:

That is certainly true. But it still doesnt mean that we have to shoot the heavy cav with the archers. Unless the enemy has an all-cav army, he will have other juicy targets for the archers, like elite infantry, chariots etc. And our SSC's can shoot the cav (assuming we have a hill to deploy them on so they can see over the archers).

They dont work if we rely on the Killing Blow ability to knock out enemy heroes one after another. But its a nice side effect. With a bit of luck it can always happen that a dwarf or elven lord is slain by the Icon Bearer. This is by no means his main purpose, but it adds to his other abilities.
To say it again, I dont use an Icon Bearer very often and other characters seem superior in many armies. But still he can be worth it in some cases, especially if he has a special role like using the Banner of the Hidden Dead to prepare a flank charge, or, in this case, allow the archers to reform freely.


Another important aspect of the whole strategy is the surprise effect it has. Obviously after the first use, our opponent will know what we have planned if we use it again. But the first time it will be unexpected, unless our opponent knows TK very well and guesses what we have in mind.


To sum up, I agree with you that 400 points on archers with BS2 is very much. This makes the strategy risky, undoubtly.
Nevertheless, I think its definitely worth trying it out. I go d'accord with Backlash that this is not a strategy that will win tournaments. But for friendly games its a nice experiment that can surprise your opponent and if he isnt prepared for it, it may turn out to be a game-winner. :)

He is right in that I don't want to be on a hill I just want to block line of sight unit Im ready to charge. The only weakness is in the fact that you can only add up to two ranks per movement phase. This means that I have to use my real movement phase and maybe magic to get the full effect.

The army this would be used against will be O&G and I wanted a fun way to release all of my cousins fanatics(he's fanatical about those guys HA HA...man i suck). I would rather save the carrion for something else or save the special slot.

Also I was curious as to exactly how combat would work if I dropped the icon bearer(since thats everyones problem) and just allow the unit to get creamed. I doubt that the opponent with even two units can inflict 40 wounds after combat res. and since the unit is not destroyed per se then he cannot overrun. I know its really expensive to do this but I would drop the poison, have no banner, and use the unit primarily to block LOS and set up counter charges with my other units.

(as a side note Im first and foremost a skaven player so I always look for ways to make just about anything expendable. plus its kinda fun) :D

Also this unit size might work in a siege really well since Ill always hit on 5's no matter what and one spell give me another 40 shots on guys behind hard cover and over half range. Just a thought.

*edited for spelling; I guess 6 years of undergraduate work still isnt enough :(

It's disappointing to lose even for fun.If somebody wants to try something for fun it's ok.Everything must be tried to see if it works.I just went against it because i have seen the results but if you don't have a problem by that and you want to try it by yourselves,it's just fine with me.Hope it works! ;)