Hey, I was wondering if anybody could tell me the main difference between vampire counts and tomb kings since they both look pretty similar IMO. I want to start an undead army but I don't know which to buy.

This should help a bit:

Tomb Kings

Vampires

EDIT: damn, you are a lucky guy: you post got answered in 2 min :P

VC are about Vampires and Tomb Kings are about mummies. Thats the main difference.

Rules wise the two armies are very different. Both play in quite different ways. One is a very competative list, the other sucks. The sucking one, has the kooler models and IMHO is more attractive to look at, but tomb Kings aren't a very Strong army. GW just forgot to playtest the magic. My advice would be go for Vampire unless you are a mor eexpereinced player, and even then I would say Vampires...

thanks for the help guys

I disagree, Tomb Kings are fantastic and my games with them have been complete victories, in my best my opponent surrendered at the end of turn 2! They are competative and very powerful in the right hands.

Tomb Kings have weaker magic and cannot make new units, but it is more relentless. It never miscasts and you get a lot of spells every turn. The Vampire stuff is more powerful but the spells can fail before your opponent tries to miscast.

Tomb Kings have weaker characters, Vampires are without a doubt the most powerful characters in the game. Very tough and hard to kill as well.

Vampire Counts get no long range, while TK can be fairly shooty.

TK seem to have more units that can actually hit hard, Ushabti, giants, chariots and scorpions really kill like crazy. VC rely more on outnumbering and flanking opponents, though the Vampire models get a lot of kills and wights aren't bad.

TK models look sweeet. VC can use any models since they are basically the dead bodies raised from the ground, makes for a potential cheap army (can buy other army boxes rather than VC blisters) as well as a huge opportunity for some great conversions.

Overall, they play very differently though have essentially the same advantages. Both are competative and in the right hands, extremely powerful, but are often seen as hard to master though i didn't really think so... Maybe my opponents are just bad though. :P

No, TK aren't competative. The Kings never place well in competative tournies, and are hardly taken. Ask any quality player and they will all scoff at TK, toating a 100% win ratio against them, and laughing at the army because it just doesn't work. It has good areas, but overall it is a pile of balls. 65pt Ogres who can't march and are M5! I don't care if you can strike first, you are slow as can be. Furthermore if you come up against a strong magic phase there is nothing you can do to stop it unless you load up on dispel scrolls, which means you can't buy toys. Unlike the counts who augment their armies with magic, TK rely on magic to do things. They rely on magic to charge and they rely on magic to have a strong shooting phase. Vampires can use their magic offensively and can move without the aid of magic. Additionally a Vampires magic phase is generally more scary then that of a Kings. Why? More dice, more damage, less predictable. Furthermore, the way Kings can't raise new units may be fluffy, but it really is a pain in the arse.

Kings play differently to every other race which catches people off guard when they first play them, but a bit of thought will win you the day. I can completely deatroy the TK magic phase with 4DD + 2 Scrolls. Why? Because I know exactly what you are going to do when you do it, so I will just save my scrolls untill turn 2-3 when you try and pull off the tricky flank charges with your chariots...

Come on Ras, give up! ;)

I suggest you rewright your post in the Khemri forum and you will notice that there are far too many successful TK players who have different expereinces and will contradict your statements.

However, I dont want to just state that TK are equal to other races when it comes to competivity, I want you to understand why that is. So I'll shortly comment on the things you regard as disadvantages.

First, the marching thing is irrelevant here. No undead model can march anyway! This is compansated by the movement spell and is a general aspect of the army, not ushabti-specific. You dont care if they strike first? Well, thats what will make them win most of their combats! A unit of 4 Ushabti can easily hold a charge, strike first in the following round, and due to their WS 4 and S 6 (more than most other Ogre models) they will probably be victorious.
Concerning the point cost, every undead model is more expensive than a living model with the same profile. This is obvious, due to the undead rules (cause fear, immune to psychology and unbreakable). The point cost is fair, if not even a bit low.

In ways of magic defense, TK are not perfect, but definitely over average. First, TK armies usually include at least two priests/high priest, probably three. So the basic pool will be higher than in other armies, in which often only one or two mages are used. Dispel scrolls can be takes just like in other armnies too, they even have an enchanted item that is like a dispel scroll, so the priests dont have to be clogged up.

True, TK rely on their magic. However, this isnt a problem, as the magic superiority will be so high that enough incantations will get through.
A short example: I played vs empire and had marched forward with my cav and chariots, moving into the fire range of my opponents hellblaster. My play was to charge the hellblaster with my carrions in the magic phase. Obviously my opponent tried to prevent that. He dispelled the first try by my TK and the second try by my first priest. He used the rest of his DD for the attempt of my second high priest to move the carrions. Casting the same spell twice, my High priest (it was 3.000 point battle) drew out both my opponent's dispel scrolls. Finally, I used the Hieratic Jar to cast a further incantation and my opponent had nothing left against it. So I charged the hellblaster, protecting my chariot and cav units who were able to charge next round, and eventually winning the game.
This example shows nicely that, unlike other armies, TK magic is reliable. TK armies can force their incantations to work. By the way, this gives carrions a 40" charge range in the first round, meaning they can reach almost everything they want. Not bad for a slow army, eh?

This is simply a different army concept. High Priests cant raise new units. But they can "resurrect" fallen skellies, heal other models (even chariots and skull throwers) and make them move, strike in CC or shoot. The TK magic concept circles around maintaining the power of the army, by helping the existing models move and attack and by healing them. That VC can raise new units is nice. It has nothing to do with TK's though and cant be compared, because its a totally different army and a different concept.

If you save your scrolls till turn 2 or 3, your warmachines will be charged by carrions in the first round. If you begin the battle and march forward, even more units will be able to attack you in the first TK magic phase. Fine, you might be able to prevent flank charges if you really want to, though due to the tremendous amount of incantations going off, even this will be hard. Even if it works, what are you going to do against your opponent getting charges with his scorpions, shooting twice with his catapults or bowmen, or striking with his unit in CC?
The thing is, that TK magic is superior to the magic of other armies, due to the sheer amount of dice and incantations. Even loading up on scrolls cant prevent that.


So you see that things that may seem like disadvantages at first are actually not much of a problem for TK armies. They have their weaknesses, as every army does. But they are definitely not inferior to other warhammer armies.

Yes they are. Sure they might be on par at a friendly level, but they simpley aren't when it comes to competative tournies like the UKGT scene. Argue all you like but the simple fact is they can't compete, and they don't. The facts say so, and the Tournie Vets say so.

I love the fluff, I love the models and at a freindly level they are just the same as every other race, but no ammount of talking is going to change facts. They can't hack it, much like dwarfs struggle and to some extent the Druchii struggle, but the Kings are the runts of the litter in competative gaming.

I am going to pull a Cal and stop arguing. Its pointless. Its a simple fact. Dispute all you like, I don't care, you are wrong, simple as that. The TK army can't hack it in a competative Tournie evironment like that of the UK or Italy.

well thank god I live in the USA then -.^

What a convincing way to lead a discussion! It seems that if its so obvious that TK suck, as you claim, it would be easy to back this with arguments and respond to mine, but oh well...

Im not so keen on convincing you. I just think it would be ashame if people who consider starting TK are thrown back because someone suggests that they are not competitive, although there are many other players apart from you that have made different experiences and have been very successful with their TK armies.

Well, I've played TK in my games group since they were released and I whip every army around the table just as easy as any others might except Skaven... I managed a draw with them a while ago, still no win though. Anyway, TK are seen as one of the better armies and if people really want a challenge they come to me, the magic is so relentless even if it is predictable even Khorn armies cannot even hope to stop it all, even the Kings and Princes can use it so magic realy flies around the board.

Funky, one thing you said about undead not marching... VC units can if they are close to the general, so that does give them an edge, but as you say no other army in the game can move a unit 40" in one turn to hit whatever kind of artillery we like. :D With incantations TK are a deceptively fast army, and even if you do manage to stop that chariot charge the skeletons at the front will still bog you down until next turn and the 2 shots per catapult will wreck you. Plus everyone saves dice for the casket, it is very useful simply for allowing the rest of your magic to go a bit easier.

And how many of you play in the competative tournies? If you do and you place highly then you might be right, if not I rest I my case.

I personally don't, too much effort, but a few of the players do. they seem to think other TK players at the tournaments are as big a threat as any other army and have often asked me about general tactics to stop the relentless magic and speed achievable by a swift moving Tomb Kings army boosted by magic.

I suppose since the TK do rely more on magic and you need to get it working well or be very slow, plus the characters aren't as strong as Vampires the army does require a fair bit to master and is possibly why you don't think they go well at tournies, people will simply choose an easier army that has more cheese capability rather than fighting their way through with TK. I do think in the right hands they are devastating though, a whole army causing fear that doesn't need to try and successfully cast spells is good before you look at other factors.