2000pts Ogre Army (MSU)

Heroes
Bruiser
Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Luck Gnoblar, 2 Sword Gnoblars, Longstrider.
=182

Butcher
2 Scrolls
=180

Core
3 Bulls
Bellower, Ironfists.
=130

3 Bulls
Bellower, Ironfists.
=130

3 Bulls
Bellower, Ironfists.
=130

3 Bulls
Bellower, Ironfists.
=130

3 Ironguts
Bellower, Gutlord.
=174

20 Gnoblar Fighters
Groinbiter.
=42

20 Gnoblar Fighters
Groinbiter.
=42

10 Gnoblar Trappers
Snarefinger.
=64

Special
2 Leadbelchers
=110

2 Leadbelchers
=110

Rare
Gorger
=75

Power Dice: 4
Dispel Dice: 3 + 2 Scrolls
Total Models: 72 (!)

***

So, this is the list that I'm planning on taking to Conflict London later this year. The Butcher's there to shut down enemy magic phases until the Gorger and Trappers (hehe) finish their mage-hunting. The Bruiser runs around alone with his Great Weapon and take out chariots and lone characters. He can slot in with the 'guts or Bulls later on if necessary. The Leadbelchers sit on the flanks and blast away at pesky thinling cavalry. The Gnoblar Fighters try to get into combat at the same time as at least one Bull unit to boost combat res. If they run, well, they're only Gnoblars, right?


Any thoughts?

I like it. It seems robust, flexible and tough - that many units of Bulls will be extremely frightening for the enemy. One thing I'd be tempted to tamper with is hitting power - right now you don't have much above S4. Would it be possible to work Yhetees into the list?

I like the idea of Yhetees, I really do, but the problem's their armour save. I just get the feeling that they'll be shot to hell before they even reach combat. At least with Bulls the lack of armour doesn't matter so much as they're cheaper.

I'm not sure, I'll wait and see what others say before I make my mind up.

I can't decide to be honest. The sheer number of units is, in one sense admerable but practically I don't see the list as being very effective. Simpley because you are double stacking crap troops. Ogres take up alot of room. Your front line will be something along the lines of the IGs, and two units of bulls ith stacking and flank support. The problem is non of your units bar the IGs can fight and even they aren't maximised to fight. You have no banners and no units of more then three. With a limited shooting phase and next to no magic you are relying on combat to win the game, and you are going to be outclassed by most. In effect I can see the enmy going straight through you.

I would be looking for two bannered units of IGs. One three strong with the warbanner to be joined by the Butcher and one Four strong with a Muso and Banner. I wouldn't stick champs in as they are more of a hinderance then a benefit. This will give you two units who can take the charge from most units and win. It does work very, very nicely.

Currently I can just see the enemy going striaght through one units of bulls and into whatever is behind. You might argue you can flee the charges, but this is going to cause panic tests you would be better not be taking, especially witth the number of units who will be taking the tests.

Something else to concider would be dropping the brusier and putting in another brusiier. Just take all those anti magic toys. There generally isn't too much magic at Conflict.

Ras: Are we to assume that you meant to say to swap the butcher for a second bruiser, or the bruiser for a second butcher? :P

I'm in general agreement with Ras, I appreciate what you are trying to do (including the gnoblars for ranks is exactly the same kind of principle why I include zombies in my own VC army), but without any standards, and with only one unit and one character with any real hitting power, this army will struggle to break the enemy in combat as it is meant to do.

I'd like to see a second bruiser in there if possible, and a unit of Yeti's would not go amiss, as Chili mentioned: the extra movement will make them invaluable as flankers to counteract the ranks which the enemy troops are bound to have over you if your gnoblars aren't in the right place at the right time.

Cheers,
DLJ

*Nofd in agreemient with DLJ and Ras*

Though I still think we are dropping a bruiser for a bruiser. Doesn't mess with the points that way :D

You have no ranks, no out nymber, no banners. Yes, you have flanks, IF you hold a round of combat. Brets will walk all over this. Lizzies can hold for a long time, and all they need is a turn, then they can likely out res you....

There are few strengths, but there are a few, low character points, and gnablars are good. As is the gorger. Yeti's would be very nice, and I am debating whether you really need 4 belchers. Try to fit some banners in :D

My experience with Kroxigor is that shooting doesn't matter that much. If the enemy really starts to pick on them, you can throw the Trappers in as a screen, but most of the time your Yhetees will do fine because of the 3 wounds they have. They'll add M7 (which incidentally will give the enemy less time to shoot them) and S5 to the army. I think this stays closer to the spirit of your original design than Ras' proposed modifications (although I think they're good - if you don't adopt all of them, at least take his advice about sticking the Bruiser in the Ironguts and giving them the War Banner), and gives you a tad more flexibility.

No, but the butcher with the IGs. And yes I meant a butcher for a brusier. Additionally I don't think Yhettis are going to solve the problem. LD7 is their problem, and the fact they aren't going to support the mian line. IGs are what you want.

Ok I have remade the list in away I would think it would work. You have lost one unit of ogres overall, but to me the list is now far more effective and useable.

Goblit's Conflict Ogres V1.Ras

Brusier (Long Strider, GW, HA, 2 sword Gnoblars)
Butcher (2 scrolls)

3 Iron Guts, Std, Muso (Warbanner) - look out gnoblar
4 Iron Guts, Std, Muso
3 Bulls, LA, Iron Fists
3 Bulls, LA, Iron Fists
20 Gnoblars
20 Gnoblats
9 Trappers

2 Lead Belchers
2 Lead Belchers

Gorger

1470pts in total
4 PD
3 DD + 2 scrolls

So you even have 30pts to do with as you see fit. The Butcher goes with the 3 IGs and the Brusier goes it alone. This gives you more LD 8 and allows your Bruiser to stray further away from your rockhard centre. The two IG units are both very strong, with the Butchers one beign able to take an army in the front. The butcher can challange any killy characters and easily survive. :D Lovely. Magic wise I would be looking at two one dice casts and one two dice cast a turn, which is very shabba if I do say so myself.

So what if you have lost one unit of ogres. You now have more punch and more reliability not to mention a overall more effective list. My battle line would be the butchers unit flanked by the LBs (set a inch or two back) with the other IG unit to one side, with a bulls unit to their flank andf the other bulls unit protecting the LBs flank. The Gnoblars would run behind the army, roughtly behind the LBs and the General would be fairly central to spread his LDship to the Bulls and the Gnoblars.

Ras

Woah, loads of replies. As Ras would say, shabba. I don't know what it means, but it's a cool word. :thumb:

To be honest, I'm not really worried about double stacking, because I'm not sure I'll need to do it. According to the booklet, Conflict tables are 6' by 4'. That's a lot of room for ogres!

Also, I'd disagree with the "crap troops" part. It's basically an MSU list, so a single units of ogres is not expected to break the enemy line. Would you expect 12 DE to do so? If I get two units of ogres into an enemy ranked unit, with Bull Charges, 12 attacks per unit and a flank bonus, I can reasonably expect to win.

The holding power if I don't get the charges in is a bit of a problem, though. The army might well be a bit hit-and-miss.

If you think it's a better idea, I'll happily swap out the Gutlord for a standard. I just thought that the extra 100pts for losing a standard could be a problem at a tournie. I don't want any "super-units" that could be a huge problem if I lose them.

Another unit of ironguts probably makes sense. I had two in my original list, but when I did this one I only fitted one unit in. I'll see what I can do.

That is a problem, true. Hopefully the extra unit of 'guts will help me hold the line?

After the discussion in the Conflict London post in the OT section, I'm pretty sure that I want one butcher. Once the bruiser, gorger and trappers (hehe) have done their jobs, hopefully the butcher'll be able to do some magical damage.

I've already covered that in this post, but I just thought I'd quote it so you don't feel left out. ;)

I think Ogre characters are too expensive to take 3 in a 1500pts game, but I'll probably try to get Yhetees in when I re-do the list later.

If I get the extra unit of 'guts in, and flank with the Bulls? The Ironguts are more likely to hold, so I guess that'd fix it.

Trappers in front of Yhetees? Trying to make a Skink skirmish screen there, Mr Slann?

Like I've said, I'll try and get some Yhetees in. Just need to find some decent models to convert off...

I'm not quoting the whole list, nuh uh! ;) It seems good, but is that Butcher supposed to have 3 scrolls? I'm pretty sure I don't need to tell you that that's illegal...

I'll bear that list in mind when I write mine later, thanks. :thumb:




Thanks for the shabba help guys. I think...

Yeah the scroll thing was a typo. Fixed that :D. Not that it ever happened ;).

I take your point that double teaming two bulls units will give you enough to hurt units, but not many people are going to take that charge. I certainly wouldn't. The other thing two units of three ogres takes up 240mm - 24cm. I am sure I don't need to tell you that 24cm is a big space, a very big space. You may not be forced to double stack your units, but spreading them out in one lines is perhaps even more dangerous. Your flanks become LD 7 hot houses of pain. By which I mean it doesn't take much too go through them and out the back. Unarmoured ogres are still easy enough to kill. I only have to win by one and the odds are you will break!

The thing with MSU elves is you have lots of different units. You have a couple of Corsair units in 4x3 for ranks, attacks and CR, not to mention only having a 80mm frontage. Then you have hard hitters, fast cav and chariots. In essence you have a whole range of units moving at different speads that co-ordinate into one very mobile force. The difference with your army is that all the units are the same. Bulls, equiped the same.

I am not advocating the use of uber units, but you do need stronger, more potent painy units that can both dish it out and take it better. Having said that the point of MSU is to flee anything you aren't going to win. But with any elf army you are looking at LD10 rally tests if your LD9 general is about. Which is a darned sight better then LD8 which the majority of your army will be testing on. The thing is are your prepared to be ruthless with the list? I have yet to see you play so I am not sure. Can you play in the MSU frame of mind? I guess we can solve this problem. How about a game at Croydon this sunday?

As for Yhettis. Hmmm. I was a big fan of them untill I saw them play. They are damned expensive. 195pts is alot of three models who aren't the punchiest of units and certainly don't have much in the way of armour. The problem I see with them is that they generally end up fighting without the LDship of the general. When that happens they only need to draw the combat to break, and once they get going....

Oh shabba means something like "super". I use it in the context of Shabba Fantastic, which means really fantastic. But now I have begun to use it alone, to just mean excellent or some such word.

If you're looking for volcanic-style Yhetee conversions, have a peek at the Scyla model... wait, I'll see if I can find it for you...

Scyla (Ignore the Collector's Scyla: look at the one called Scyla, Spawn of Chaos).

I'm still in favour of the Yhetees myself: I can tell that Longstrider is a personal preference and won't be going anywhere fast, so he'll be able to keep the Yhetees at Ld8 when it's important. And to me, M7 is most spiffing, as is the Aura of Frost and magical attacks (which, might I point out, your army didn't possess before... what were you going to do about spirit hosts, eh? EH? Sorry...).

*Nods glumly*

I'm up for that, but I'm pretty sure I can't make this Sunday (forced visit to rellies). Maybe if we have the "Conflict London Knees-up"?

I was actually considering using that as a Gorger, but it could work as a Yhetee. Good find! ;)

Oh, and Yhetees are in. :P

Ok, no game this week end. Send us a PMail when you are free. With half term I am sure we can have a game during the week. Well the Knees up won't be going ahead unless people post in the thread...

Huzzah! Yhetees!

As for the knees-up (what does that MEAN? Ahem) - I've sent you a PM before I post, Ras. Besides, I can talk to you face to face - online communication is a tad redundant.

People keep talking about half term, when I was sure it was Easter :P

EDIT: Well, I thought that I'd try and give you an idea of what I'd be aiming for with the Yhetees, so I've drafted a suggestion for you to mock (non-Ogre chap here :D ).

Characters:

Bruiser (as above - 2 Sword Gnoblars, 1 Luck Gnoblar, Great Weapon, Longstrider, blah blah...)
182pts
Nothing to change here

Butcher: Dispel Scroll, Fistful of Laurels, Tooth-Gnoblar
175pts
Goes in bannered Ironguts, hence Fistiful of Laurels. A Tooth-Gnoblar seemed to me a good way to work a nasty surprise for your opponent into your magic phase - a single Level 2 will actually be able to cast quite a significant amount at Conflict, but a little help is always good. Plus it's just fractionally cheaper than another scroll, which allows us to keep the Trappers at 9-strong and reduce the chance of a Panic check.

2 units of Bulls with Ironguts and Bellowers.
260pts total.

3 Ironguts, no upgrades.
144pts

3 Ironguts, Standard, War Banner, Look-out Gnoblar
194pts
I hope what I've achieved here is to stick with the spirit of your original army: you don't have great stonking uber-units, but two rather frightening units, both with quite a bit of punch, but still relatively cheap and manouvreable. Ideally, I see the bannered ones as a central holding unit, the Butcher and his Fistful of Laurels bolstering their staying power and making them ideal for frontal engagement. Essentially, these two units could form the core of your line, with Yhetees and Bulls as support and flanking power.

3 Yhetees
195pts
S5 Flankers! Hooray! I'd pair these with the smaller Irongut unit myself, letting the big unit work with the weaker Bulls more towards the centre. You then have two powerful, flexible teams of units, a strategy I find almost invariably very strong.

2 units of 2 Leadbelchers
220pts total
Nothing to change here: they work very nicely as fire support and as a loose "sea" of flankers from which to support your two main combat teams.

Gorger
75pts

9 Gnoblar Trappers
54pts

As before, a very nice disruption/warmachine hunting element that would work very well in tandem with the propsed "unit teams" strategy, breaking up the enemy for your flankers to hit..


Yes, I've lost the gnoblar fighters. Sorry :(. However, I did feel they were a little out of place - the large number of Ogre units would result in them being left behind, and in a bit of 'stacking' as Rasputin described. In the end, adding in more kills and increasing the overall speed of the army, thus increasing the chances of flank attacks, balances out the little guys' ranks - I hope. I think the big difference here is that whereas before you had a total of 18 attacks at S5 or more, you now have 35. Bit of a difference, eh ;) ?

Actually I think this is a very good wayof making Goblits list more effective. You maintain the MSU feel but gain more vaiety, punch and reliability. The loss of the fighters is a real shame, because they are far morte effective then most realise, but the list works.