Who's gonna collect Ogre Kingdoms, then? I'm planning on getting a 1500pts army, although I'll mostly use them as Dogs of War in my Gobbos.

The Green Goblit :orc:

PS You get two votes, because you might have an army AND use them as DoW.

EDIT: Okay, so I didn't put the two votes thing on. :( If a mod could fix that I'd be happy.

I think I might do some cheap conversions and use them as mercenaries. Anyoine like the idea of gunther lead belchers.
The conversions would only be me mocking them though, so I would not do a whole army of them.

I went for "no", because I am still satisfied with my high elves at the moment and if I start another army I have other preferences.

Ive been following the (rather emotional) discussions about them and despite all the positive and negative things said concerning OK, I still feel rather neutral about them. The models are not bad, the gaming style seems to be ok, the fluff is perhaps not the best...
All in all, they dont fit my taste well enough for me to start collecting them but I dont have anything against them either and I would like to play against them to see how they are like.

If I haven't rounded toghether a unit of minotaurs by then, I'll probably save myself the cash and points and buy some ogres instead. I really like the way my Tzeentch-aligned Path to glory ogre turned out, so I'd probably toss him into the unit as well.

There are a few models I like out of the army so I may just use them as DOW Ogres or get them just to paint.

I selected "No" as well, as I don't actually like any of their models. A Shrek would be tempting, but that would be purely aside.

As for your poll, it's fine as it is. One choice is enough.

No. I don't like the fluff concept, so I wouldn't be collecting them as an army at any gate, and as DoW they hold nothing my armies can't do better already.

So ya boo sucks to you, Ogres!

Nope- but only because they don't fit in my Averland army. If I had, say, an Ostermark army, sure! :)

No way. I'm already playing Orcs, Empire, Beastmen, and Imperial Guard. And they don't seem that interesting to me.

I would love to, but I just started Beastmen and other gribbly chaos things to be in a tournament at my local club

So, no for the moment :P

I'm buying 1unit of those ogers for my beast army.

I'm contemplating getting some for DoW.

They won't fit with any of my armies at the moment (High Elves, Lizzies, VC) so I'll just get them some time, and keep them ready.

Or if I'm feeling particularly nasty I'll take them anyway.

I'm quite tempted to get a small army to take to one of the Conflict events. It'll make a nice change to my VC. The only problem, as ever, is money.

Cheers,
DLJ

I'll definately be using them as DoW as they seem very fitting in an O&G army (and Empire to a lesser extent). I might get more to be an army...but I reckon it'll be better to wait for wood elves -_-

I'll be buying an army of them, can't wait.
I thik they seem like a really interestin army to play hopefully the fluff is good as well.

No, for reasons implied in my controversial Alabama post. I don't like the models, or the illustrations. In fact I loath the illustrations. And I guess some of the models are nice. I recede my comment on the models. But I still despise the illustrations.

I am contmeplating gettign a small force but only a small force because im already collcitng too much(ork chaos marines tombkings).

I won't be getting them as I despise them and think they are needless.

Oh, man. Really?

Okay then, explain the 'need' for Wood Elves, then, would you Cal? How 'bout the Dwarfs? Or Lizardmen? Or any other race in the Warhammer world.

You can despise them all you want, and I won't say a word. That's your right, and I couldn't care less if you can support it with good arguments or not. But please, stop with these secondary arguments that make no sense. First they were overpowered, and now they aren't needed? What's next?

I did not say they were beardy, or anything like that. Actually the fact that they are not needed itself is a primary argument as we have a all 3 wound option. Also I think there was no need to expand unless for fluff reasons and this compltly upsets (in my view) the fluff, however weak in some areas, it still really annoyed.
The fact that I despise them is simply becasue I do. There is no two ways about it and it's not even for wood elves, it is just I don't like them because I don't.

Some contradiction there. Or did you mean that you didn't say it in your most recent post, which wasn't my point at all.

What? As has been pointed out before, Beasts of Chaos could have an all-minotaur army before Ogres came out. That doesn't mean that no oher army can have the same option; why not eliminate Empire, because O&G have the option to have an entirely 1-W force as well? DE and WE aren't needed, because HE can do an entirely T3 army. Honestly, this is the worst argument I've heard from anyone on this site at any point.

Also, what the hell do you mean when you say needless? At first it sounded like you meant fluffwise, which is absolutely ridiculous, as none of the armies are 'needed', especially since it's a fantasy world controlled entirely by GW. Now, it sounds like you don't want any armies that are at all similiar, even in the furthest stretches of possibility, to any other army. Sounds to me like you want a 2- or 3-force game, where they're all completely different. Try Starcraft, or Warcraft.

So there's no need for new armies, or for any understanding of the setting beyond what we've been given? I disagree. This opens up new opportunities within the fluff, which can only be a good thing. Also, note that I said nothing about the quality of the fluff released so far, as I haven't read it and therefore won't debate about it.

Then why bother with all these other nonsensical comments?

I am going to get them. They are going to be a good unique army that is worth collecting.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to say I'm getting the army box ON SATURDAY! :D

Hehehe...

The Green Goblit :orc:

Lol. I cant be bothered to spend all my money on it. Costs to much. If i did get it, and found out i hated them then i would kill myself.

Just to say, I am now collecting them.

I don't think they're worth the money. Plus, I don't like them. Period.

If I get a look at Goblits models in person some time soon, that may well spark up the interest needed to get some for DoW. Until then it's Space wolves, lizardmen, and 8 days until Raven Guard!!

Just out of interest, Prince Caledorian, what made you change your mind?

edit* just found the poll, never mind ^_^

I'd edit that pretty quickly before vriishnak explodes.
And do you have a reason for changing your mind?Because a month ago they were needless and now you're getting some.


I myself are using them as dogs of war,as I like the idea of having a unit of multi-wound hard hitters on my dwarf force.Plus they're incredibly fun to paint, having picked some up in paris about a week before they were released.Now that I think about it,I wish i bought ironguts instead of bulls:(.

Look here Ross.

Oh and I know Goblit has hated them before, I started changing my mind about 3 months ago and what I think about warhammer is my own choice. Ogres are in favour anyway as my hatred of Gav has gone to new levels.

For shame. Ogres are an abusive list that should be chucked in the rubbish bin. I hate them and although their list is good they are fantastically easy to defeat. Toughness 4 and a low armour save makes it very easy to destroy ogre units very quickly. Facing additional hands they are mince meat, a ranked unit can take the casualtys and dish out large damage to the ogres. Okay iron guts have toughness 5, but that's just avaiding the point. Gnoblars are goblins do I need to say more about that? Lead belchers, pah, all you need is a reasonably strong flying unit and then they're useless, fast cav would do. Don't know anything about gnoblar trappers.

Shame be cursed apon you all,

Shaargor.

What an amazing load of bull. They´re abusive, but fantastically easy to defeat? That´s we call a contradiction.

On the points about T4 and low armour saves, every army has a weakness. The whole point of the game is to play to your strengths and combat your weaknesses. If they didn´t have the armour save weakness, they could be the cheesy army you clearly think they are. That´s how GW balance the game - for every strength, a weakness. Anyway, Warhammer is a strategy game. You have to get your troops into combats that they can win. You have to get the charges in. It´s called tactics.

I don´t have my army book with me to check that, but I´m pretty sure that they only have T4. Anyway, it´s not avoiding the point. You can´t just discount a unit because it doesn´t back up your point. Ironguts are there to fill a certain role in the army, that being a unit with decent armour and holding power. Again, it´s tactics.

Again, they fill a certain role. Gnoblars are there to boost combat res with their rank bonuses. Besides, what´s wrong with goblins? Everything has a use.

So we´re presuming that they don´t pump ten tonnes of lead into your lightly armoured fast cavalry unit? There are ways of combatting everything. You might have a way of neutralising your opponent´s leadbelchers, but what if he swats your flyers out of the air with Gut Magic, or even sharp stuff?

Once again, it all comes down to tactics. You can´t say that a whole army is fantastically easy to defeat just because your opponent doesn´t know how to use it. You could say that about any army.

Then find out, and get your facts right before you slag off an entire army.

Rant over.

Firstly, they have a abusive list, but their units don't work together. Iron guts have a high armour save, does that really matter. Every army has something that can take units with high armour saves out quickly and easly, eg lizardmen have kroxigors. They could slaughter a unit of iron guts.

Gnoblar trappers are one unit in a army, one unit. I'll slag off the rest of the arm, but I left out the unit of troops I didn't know anything about.

Goblins are great, I often play all gobbos, but in a ogre army they can be easly picked and destroyed, leaving you with a few panic tests and a hole in your line. They can be a sacraficial unit or an okay tarpin, but the could leave great hole in your battle line.

Everything has a use, but often this use can not be put to effect by the army your playing. Dwarf rangers, a movement 3 scouting unit is laughable. One example of a basically useless unit.

You can use scenery to hide your fast cav and let you have your shots, will charge your re-loading lead belchers

Shaargor, if you hate OK so much, and you also think they can be defeated so easily, why are you complaining?

I'm just going to outline the main problems with ogres:
1: Magic, they don't have enough of it. They need 3 butchers to have a reasonable magic defense and attack which costs a huge amount in points and real money.

2: Weakness in sustained combat. Unless an ogre army gets a significant amount of breaks on the turn they charge they're in trouble, their lack of units means the enemy have a good chance to flank them giving more combat res and attacks.

3: No ranks, okay they can take them but that's just stupid. Considering gnoblars are slower than an ogre they're relying on kills to win the combat which is never safe, you always should aim to have some none kill combat res. Even if they win chance is that their cost means no outnumbering so break tests are being taken and the advantage of fear is not used.

4: Unreliable shooting. Only sharp stuff is going to be steady (I won't count harpoon launchers because of lack of them). Leadbelchers have to take a turn to reload and if you include scrap launchers you will only have 1/2 units shooting a turn. Scraplaunchers have some rule about charging which makes them unreliable meaning 2 is a safer choice but that cuts down on leadbelchers.

5: Movement. Yes ogre's are quick but the lack of anything really quick means that they have problems in the movement phase. This can lead to being outflanked which is bad or even worse the loss of butchers.

To me those facts show glaring weakness in the list meaning that they aren't competitive. They fail on a lot of tournament criteria and are so so on others. For me they're going to thrash n00bs and sometimes average players but not good players, a lot of armies are like this but do we call them cheesy?

P.S I know that last bit is a bit (hugley) rich coming from me but hey.

You've got it in one. But if you think so little of ogre kingdoms, why do you collect them?

I collect them because they're cool. I have plenty of armies for tournies and a cheap, cool army is what I wanted.

Oh and aren't you being a bit contadictory because you said they're abusive while I argued they're not.

The list is abusive on paper, but the units just don't work together. I'm still bitter that GW just made ogre kingdoms before re-doing wood elves. They may be cool models and fluff (some of it), but I think that they aren't effective on table top.

I'll just sidestep the debate and add my thoughts to the original topic. Personally I am planning to use them as allies (DOW) for my existing O+G army. I may not be too happy about them being released before the Woodies, but as long as they are here I may as well make use of them.

As for the original topic, as soon as I get my Cult done I am starting ogres. I have already begun to convert my Tyrant's Tenderiser.

As for Shaargor and Cal's comments: Whilst I would agree that there is a truth in what you say, it is not truthful. Ogres are not the uber list many seemed to fear pre-release, but they aren't a bad army, nor a weak one, and they are competitive. I will give you an example. Dwarfs. No one thinks of them as weak, but they perform very badly indeed in the UK tournie scene, because they aren’t competitive, ogres whilst many would say aren’t as strong as Dwarfs are competitive.

I have the good fortune of knowing a good deal of the external play-testers, and UKGT players. Phil, who is one of the countries finest players plays ogres, having racked up just 4 defeats in 30 odd games, playing with a variety of lists against a variety of players, all around his calibre (and me – who managed to get a draw J). The thing with ogres is two fold.
1) Magic. As pointed out by Cal you need the three butchers, as much for magic defence as for offence. However there are more important problems here. The inability to take a great slaughterer, not only restricts your magic ability to 8 PD, but means that you need three butchers, which means no hunter, even if you wanted one L. That is the fundemental problem with the magic, you are forced to take three butchers to play competitively. Ogre magic however is truly awesome, and I must say it is a real pain to dispel, but again it has a problem to it much like TK magic does. I must say I love Ogre magic. It works well and the butchers are great – flee skinks flee!
2) Leadership. All but the lovely Iron Guts are LD 7 (or lower if you are small and have a big nose). That in itself aint a huge problem until you put your units on the field. They’re huge! This is the problem. You can’t get that valuable LD8/9 to enough of your units without double stacking, which has its advantages and disadvanatages. There is the other problem two. I have my three butchers, so I need a general character. A bruiser is cheap and fun, but the LD 8 isn’t to hot, least of all at 2k. A tyrant, now he is rocking, problem with him, you just wanna give him toys, lots of toys. Tyrant + Toys + 3 Butchers = LOTS OF POINTS! You have solved the above two problems but given yourself another….

Overall the list isn’t hugely strong and suffers to certain armies (most notably the new woodies). What the ogres are is great fun and always offer a good game. They certainly aren’t a weak list as people make out. The majority of the weaknesses mentioned so far by Cal and Sha just don’t hold up. What you are looking at is stats and ogres. What your not looking at is Ogres on a table with characters. The OK army is truly impossible to judge until you get it on the table. As for Gnoblars not being very good it only takes 20 Gnoblars in 4x5 2 turns to kill a Skink priest in a building ;) Ogres are great. I love ‘em.

Out of interest Rassy, what is Phil's surname? I'm just wondering if I have ever heard of him before.