Now after your extensive guide would it not be great if you made a few sample list? lets say 2000pts and give some points about what the aim should be and so on(both strategy and some tactical highlights)... I know youve written som archetypes in your guide but their so shallow(no offence, it's an awesome guide, really!), I know it's extra time but I think it would raise the activity on this forum to, if we got something to discuss :D .
The tactic that got my Eye the most is your skink skirmish horde, after playing the undead for a LOOOONG while, big block have lost their charm...

Yeah, why not? You're right, any topic is a good topic on this forum - I'll get on that soon.

Thanks for the praise,

LCP

OK, here we go with the first sample list: A Skink Skirmish Horde.

For comments on the basic playing style of this kind of army, see my tactica and 'The Winged Serpent' strategy in the back of the Lizardman army book. I'll give a more in-depth examination afterwards, but that'll do for now.

The Army!

General: Oldblood on Carnosaur; Scimitar of the Sun Resplendent, the Maiming Shield, Light Armour, blessed spawnings of Itzl, Quetzl & Sotek

Level 2 Skink Priest, 2 Dispel Scrolls

Level 2 Skink Priest, Cloak of Feathers

12 Skinks

12 Skinks, Scouts

3 Jungle Swarms

3 Kroxigor

4 Kroxigor, Ancient

Stegadon

Stegadon

1995pts

This is the most recent 'skirmish' army I've used, and it did pretty well, scoring a major victory over my Dark Elf opponent who I'd be first to admit is better than me (although I'm closing the gap :)). The basic premise with this army is to absolutely screw over ANYTHING your opponent tries to do: your army is one of the most manouvreable out there, and you take full advantage of this.

The skinks (which there are usually more of) fulfil this role best. They can march impede, they can attack with missile fire and can even see off some enemy disruption troops in combat (and if they die, what have you lost?). This role is essential as they try to stop your opponent cohesively organizing to deal with your main threats: if you can achieve this you've probably won the game. The Skink Priest with the Cloak of Feathers helps here, march-impeding from turn 1 or 2 and deploying his spells from short range.

Meanwhile your big things work in teams where possible, using their incredible manouvreability and extreme hitting power to anhiilate enemy units together. Stegadons and Jungle Swarms can be used as 'anvils' on which to catch an enemy unit before hitting it in the flank with a Stegadon/Krox unit/Carnosaur, and the really big dinosaurs are even capable of tearing up some units alone.

The role of magic in this army is mainly to scare enemy manouvreability out of the way - primary targets should be anything that looks to be threatening your ability to disrupt the foe. Lightning bolts can really hurt enemy flyers/fast cav, and chances are that by attacking small enemy units like this you'll make a good return on the points you paid for your Priests. Just keep them safe and you should be fine.

As I said, this army can and will function with a higher skink ratio. In many situations, the Swarms are just worthless: were I playing my brother's orcs, you'd see two units of skinks taking their place. This is when the enemy really starts to get irritated: it's almost impossible to organise your troops to deal with the sledgehammer blow of the monsters when 48 skinks are getting in your way.

Next up: the Slann Bastion. Hope this has been all right,

LCP.

Thats exactly what I meant(Now I just go to borrow a stegadon and a kroxie and I'm on my way to vivtory ;) ), agree what you said about the swarms, If I were going to a tournay I would load up some more skinks, they are just more versatile(and I don't have swarms, don't think they are cool enough...)!
AND, what is your oppinion about JSoD i this tactic? can he be worth scrapping a priest for or are the priest too essential for success, Just asking cause I got some bad experience about priest from my last previous games and we are running a small 8player tourney this weeken and just wondering if its worth it...
I know I will be facing the following:
Khorne mortals(with chariots) In my oppinion JSoD

DE, here your setup are probably "jolly good", you didn't win with weighted dices...Right?

VC, von carstein(my list, its on the VC forum for refference), here it's probably good (if not essential) to have a priest...

Slaanesh daemonic horde, don't know what he'll go for but the slaanesh lore is too good to miss i my humble oppinion so there it's probably quite strong to have som dispel dice too...

don't know about the other players... <_<

But the fact remains: it's really fragile, it will die from sneasing too hard...
So in a blind field, what would you bring
I'm not going in to dominate the tournament, so I thought it would be fun to try something new(sort of) :thumb:,
Tho I usually go with 6 salamanders, but then they buy me a cheese if I win, quite odd tradition that(really fun tho :wub: MMMMMMmmm, cheese )


The weekend is over and here is a VERY short report:
I won the tournament :clap: alot of luck but the list was really good(I went with a JSoD instead of the flying priest) and my tacs would have made Sun Tsu envious :thumb: , tho I must say I was tactically and listwise owned in the final but then I made a pact with the dark one :D , a unit of skinks stood the charge from 8 khorned knights :eek: :eek: :eek: , My opponent, some oldschool player we didn't know well, whent on a raging campain when a stegi and some kroxies ownd the stalled knights(thats a lot of points if you know your warhammer). The other games where not very interesting... all the games were about flank superiority and that is all this list is about(sort of) so I walked over them without much resistance(may have been because Í rolled like a god most of the weekend)
The closest game of the tournament was against a slaanesh daeominc horde, the one with 20" charge, that was plain sick. but with some luck(march blocked him at almost exactly 8inch :) so my kroxies got the charge once and that was like hmmm... how should I put it... GOOD, yeah, thats the word, good!
Thats all... not much from the games but I'll post more of the match when I have the time and if there is any interest

Glad the army worked for you. Sorry I haven't posted the next article: too much to do, too little time. Anyhow, here's the next installation: The Slann Bastion.

My own Slann Bastion:

Second Generation Slann
Plaque of Tepok
Rod of the Storm
2 Dispel Scrolls
Battle Standard Bearer
585pts

Skink Chief
Sword of Might
Cloak of Feathers
Light Armour
Shield
Blessed Spawning of Sotek
139pts

Saurus Scar-veteran
Great Weapon
Light armour
Blessed Spawnings of Quetzl & Sotek
Glyph Necklace
Jaguar Pendant
176pts

16 Temple Guard
Full command
War Banner
Shields
348pts

19 Saurus Warriors
Full command
258pts

12 Skink Skirmishers
Javelins & Shields
Scouts
84pts

3 Kroxigor
174pts

Stegadon
235pts

Total: 1999pts

The main concept of this army is defence - you may have guessed from the word 'Bastion'. However, unlike a Dwarf 'Enduring Mountain', you do not have the advantage of being able to sit tight while you blast your enemy to pieces: magic just isn't that powerful offensively. So, here are the basic principles of this army:

1. Advance defensively. Don't rush at the enemy, straining every model to get into contact, don't hold back and let them come to you. Move up cautiously and meet them mid-way, perhaps slightly more towards your table edge. Manouvre as much as possible to make the best of any beneficial terrain that presents itself.

2. Anchor your flanks. In this army, that's the job of the Stegadon, Skinks and Kroxigor (the last two working together), and being manouvreable heavy-hitters they tend to do it quite well.

3. Keep your infantry line tight! Don't let enemy characters or disruption-type troops get behind or between your units: your Saurii especially will need those ranks to survive (Temple Guard don't have to worry so much because they're stubborn).

Once you've got a hold of these three principles, your army should be in a good position to begin killing the enemy :). So, how do we go about this?

Well, the idea of the army above is to literally lure the enemy to destruction. Two infantry units? Two infantry units! Pah! I, the mighty skaven player, laught at your two infantry units, since I have twenty-two....

This is the idea. Both the Temple Guard and the Saurii work together quite well: any keen enemies who attack alone are liable to be flanked by the unit they didn't engage, and both units are absolute killing machines in cc. When the enemy get close, the Slann's spells must have taken their toll: Bane of Forged Steel, Transmutation of Lead, Blinding Light etc or simply damage spells to remove ranks will ensure the enemy will be in no condition to fight your elite combat units - and with your effective flank anchors they hopefully won't have too much of an advantage in the way of outnumbering and outmanouvreing you. So they'll throw themselves, depleted and impeded by magic, onto your troops in a desperate attempt to destroy them, and bounce off.

However, effective enemy magic defence and/or missile fire can scupper this plan, neutralising your magic and/or damaging your own troops so that it's still an even fight. This is where the two other characters in this army come in: the FSOD and the JSOD.

Both these guys are EXTREMELY effective mage-hunters. They're even better at destroying war-machines and will march-block the enemy with ease. They function as a scaled-down version of the usual hordes of skinks: destroy, screw over and halt anything small-scale the enemy tries to do. As well as diverting his attention from the main battle, they should give your Slann (who should hopefully be 2nd Gen - otherwise you'll need to back him with Skink Priests) total dominance of the magic phase, allowing you to continue with the lure and smash tactic to your heart's content.

However, 'lure and smash' doesn't always work, especially when faced with elite fighters like Chaos. This is where the flank anchors repay their exorbitant points cost: after dealing with the light troops that will probably assail your flanks, they can swing around (using their good mobility) and crash right along the enemy line from either end: thanks to the activity of your two bouncing characters of 'WHEEEEE!' there should be little left to stop them, as most of the enemy combat troops will be locked in combat with the oh-so-tasty target of the Slann's expensive unit and their Saurus chums. A flank charge from a Stegadon or a Kroxigor unit can destroy a unit on its own: with a ranked Saurus/TG unit fighting in the front, your enemy shouldn't stand the chance of a chocolate kettle in a blast furnace.

I hope this has been helpful. Until next time (the 'Saurus Sledgehammer' tactic), goodbye.

OK, here is the final archetype army. After I've finished typing this, I'll change the title of this topic and pin it.

The Saurus Legion or Saurus Sledgehammer

My latest version of the army:

Oldblood
Sword of the Hornet, Maiming Shield
Blessed Spawnings of Tzunki, Quetzl and Sotek
Light Armour
243pts

Scar-veteran
Battle Standard Bearer
Sword of Battle
Blessed Spawnings of Tzunki & Quetzl
Light Armour
147pts

Skink Priest
Level 2
Two Dispel Scrolls
150pts

Skink Priest
Level 2
Rod of the Storm
135pts

12 scouting skinks, javelins & shields
84pts

10 skinks, javelins & shields
72pts

10 skinks, javelins & shields
72pts

20 Saurii: Blessed Spawning of Tzunki
Full Command
280pts

19 Saurii: Blessed Spawning of Tzunki
Full Command
268pts

19 Saurii: Blessed Spawning of Tzunki
Full Command
268pts

3 Kroxigor
174pts

3 Salamanders
195pts

1999pts total

DISCLAIMER: This is not the perfect Saurus Legion. It is a) designed to play in a campaign where I will hopefully be able to exploit river territories to my advantage and B) defeat Orcs, who are I2 and therefore will be 'striking simultaneously' (i.e. whoever won the last round goes first, or if it was a draw, dice off) with I2 Saurii of Tzunki. It is also themed: as you have probably noticed, the army is dedicated to Tzunki and is entirely aquatic.

A more 'normal' Saurus Sledghammer army would include less Marked saurus units, less skinks, more normal Saurus units and more peripherals like Kroxigor and Stegadons - by scrapping one of the units of 10 skinks and all the marks of Tzunki a unit of three Terradons could be bought. However, I still feel this is a pretty good example.

This army works around a very simple concept, which can be found underlying the 'Thunder Lizard' tactics at the back of the Lizardman army book: Drive the enemy into the ground, engage head-on, leave none alive. The three Saurus blocks are guarded to the flanks by Salamanders and Kroxigor, with skinks running ahead to disrupt the enemy's own flankers and to achieve the situation in which the Saurii can engage with certain victory ahead, described below.

Saurii will smash most things, especially when backed up by their Kroxigor and Salamander friends. However, what you don't want happening is the enemy surrounding you: since they will most likely have a superior number of troops, this is difficult to avoid, and one unlucky combat or stubborn unit and your Saurus line will be stuck in a protracted combat with enemies to its front and flank, slowly being worn away before breaking and being run down, losing all those lovely points.

This is what the skinks are here to prevent. Deploying skinks as far forwards and as far out as possible on either flank, you rush forwards, seeking cover where possible, and do some intense disruption on the enemy's flanks. Don't worry about your Saurus' flanks: Salamanders have 360 degrees LOS, and therefore will be able to flame-grill any enemy light troops that get near, while Kroxigor provide the perfect answer to enemy cavalry.

The Skinks should result in the enemy's formation folding, or, if he's clever, in the entire battle-line slowing down. Assuming he's not clever, this is the situation you should hopefully achieve, with the lines representing the enemy battle line

_______------------------_______
SKINKS-__-------------__--SKINKS
-------------_________
-----------SAURII SAURII KROX

Now your Saurii are doing what they do best: fighting one-on-one, head-to-head with the enemy, backed up by vicious flankers of their own. The enemy's line should cave, and you just mop up the rest.

Alternatively, if the enemy decides to slow down his battle-line so as not to fall into the convex formation shown above, you can bunch your Saurii together on one flank and send the skinks and Salamanders over to the other, preventing that half of the enemy's army from reaching you in time as you deliver a sledgehammer blow to the half which can move properly. The incredible manouvreability of your skink-based units makes it possible to switch from one strategy to another in mere turns, putting your opponent on the back foot.

The role of magic and missile fire in this army is strictly subordinate: in some cases it may be better to eschew mages altogether in favour of Marks of Tepok. In any case, your aims with missile fire and magic should be simple: destroy any threat to your plan. This army relies the most on its tactical tricks and strategy, since the large blocks of Saurii are slow to react to rapid changes: if there are enemy fast cavalry, fliers or large monsters about, KILL THEM. Remember, you can't afford to go wild with magic, as you will probably need at least two Saurus characters to back up your units: a BSB is advisable, as he really keeps the line together if things start to look bad.

This type of list is perfectly adapted to crushing 'regular' armies: however, it may encounter problems with unconventional armies such as MSU elves or Skink Hordes. Beware rules like Ambush or 'Comes from Below' - again, you should try and use your missile fire and magic to neutralise these threats.

Very good chili. What campaign are you playing out of intrest?

It hasn't started yet, but we're hoping to get a Border Princes campaign (out of the GC) going soon. The idea is that I'll choose a territory as my capital that borders on Blood River then expand rapidly down Blood River and Thunder River. Anyone who attacks my banner can play that army - across a river :).

As I thought. Souns cool. Is rasp in it.

Hopefully. As I said, it's as yet but a plan: we're currently trying to find a way of holding regular meetings to play the campaign over.

As always, High quality article/primer(or whatever) which gives a better insight in the basic tactics of the Lizardmen! Great Work :clap: !

Doesn't leave much unawnsered questions(generally speaking)

ps. you tsunki army will probably be a b1tch to play against and you won't be popular playing it ^_^ , a note tho, me and some friend have discussed a similar campaign(probably won't happen i the near future, no time...) and if I were you I would probably bring a skink skirmish horde with 2 packs of salamanders with 3 in each and with everything being aquatic your are loooking of one CHEESY army.
tho I hope you are physically stronger than your opponent because they may get a strong urge to gut you after some hours on "the beach":D

ps. wouldn't it be nice if the lizzies had an aquatic mount that was so-so on dry land but with some beefy bonuses in water, like a crocodile or something, just play with the thought...

3 very effective lists well done Chilli :D :D :D
PS: I hope the champain is a sucess.

I wouldn't say that. I think thats one of the best themed armies I've ever seen chilli. It's the army that the great slann would send if they were trying to conquer rivers, a perfect army. :thumb:

I love how everything in that army is able to swim, and gives the oppertunity for some awesome fluff stories. Like stories of some chaos dudes marching towards a point in the river that the lizzie force is too far a way to defend. What do they do? Dive in the river and swim downriver with the current, where they burst out of the water surprising the chaos horde and obliterating them.

I might have to steal that army and idea chilli if I find a campaign like that, with some changes of magic items of course. Hope you dont mind ^_^

Thanks. I've already written a short story about the Saurii pulling away a makeshift bridge as retreating COP forces try to cross it, leaving those who managed to cross in time stuck on the other bank in what they find is a swamp after the massive rainfall called by the Slann burst the banks of the river... :)

Feel free to use it! The only problem I can see with it is that it is not very flexible in terms of the actual units' capabilities. To help counter this, make sure YOU'RE the one making the river terrain: make sure you use fords instead of bridges, as you can't charge out of the river into the flank of a unit on a bridge, whereas you can most definitely do it to a unit on a ford.

And when making your river, make sure to make it look really fast-flowing and deep, so that your opponent will agree when you say 'Impassable' :). Or, if they won't agree to that, try the swimming rules from the General's Compendium Ship Battles rules, with some added rules for being washed downstream.

Also, you'll notice that in the GC Border Princes Campaign Map, Blood River and Thunder River pretty much give you damn fast coverage (since they are made up of very thin, long territories with lots and lots of borders) of everywhere bar the North-west and utter North of the map, so I plan to use them as a line of fortifications: it will be EXTREMELY difficult for anyone to defeat me if my banner is occupying a river section, since there will effectively be a semi-impassable wall down the middle of the field that I can walk straight over or stand in and Salamander them; therefore people will be terrified of attacking it after the first few games. I can use this to raid and pillage the lands around, discouraging anyone from coming near the rivers as there land will be constantly attacked and razed - therefore after a period of raiding, I'll have driven them back so I can take the river-adjacent territories myself, and expand in that manner. Anyone looks to be attacking me decisively? Quick! Back to the river! And Fortify it, while you're there (placing the barricades right across my end of the fords :)). I reckon this way I can pen in and obliterate anyone in the South-East corner while simultaneously exerting a vast amount of control over who fights who in the central forest and North-Western plains - for example, if my brother's orcs take the South-East (where the Orc Camp special territory lies) I can take them out swiftly, but use my defensive banners to move in threatening ways and make sure the people who might pose a challenge at my river sections (the local Skaven Player and he who thou all knowest as Rasputin) fight each other!

LCP, those strategies you've discribed are roughly the main "archetypes" of lizardmen warfare, soooooooooo why not make a poll too see which is the most popular about our honorable palace members. don't know if you can add a poll at this point or if we have to start a new topic tho...

It would need a new topic - so instead I'll just ask people here (polls seldom yield accurate results anyhow, as people may use the lists in different ways in this case)

So, everyone: What kind of list do you prefer, and how do you use it?

(Argh - new skin hurts eyes...)

(BTW, we've got that campaign started! HUZZAH!)

Just a thought, maybe you could do an online battle report as a bit of fun.

There are several of those in the Batrep forum... I may be doing another this Sunday. In any case, this forum isn't the place for them.

BTW, in the BP campaign, any lizardman player should race for Aldium. Three rare choices... can anyone say 'Terror'?

I meant the battle report section chili. ;) ;)

I would have to say that the skirk skirmish horde is the most appealing to me, I'm vastly better with regiment armies(to much Counts) but the guerilla tacticts of the Horde is sooooooooooo sw33t to play, move around and harass and when they move those knights 3ínches to long, :fight: hayaaaa!!!!

but thats just me

just to say as everyone else has, good lists chilli :thumb: they look pretty good but wheres the terradons :lol: only kidding, anyway good job