http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1uBaOpoxTE

TF


p.s. Note the shout out to the 3rd Eye.

I really don't understand why they priced this one so high. I love the design, but the cost for machining and material, from what I've seen, is significantly lower than most other guns on the market. Maybe it's what CCM needs to keep doing what they're doing, I don't know. Either way, my next purchase is a gargoyle; so my opinions don't matter any way.

I don't think they are making this out of tube - I think they are making it out of billet. The machining is so clean because of improved tooling. I think that is part of it.

Also - when you think of the R&D that goes into a new marker - instead of just re-doing someone elses stuff - time is not cheap.

TF

The body being so many diffrent pieces will actualy create more machining cost as you have to do a setup for each individual piece of the body. If the body was one solid piece it is easier to set up on. Assembly will add into the cost too. It also has many new and unique features that CCM hasnt released yet, and they did their R+D thats for sure, the T2 is a sweet gun, i want one. I handled several at SPE and they were very impressive. Fit and finish on CCM guns is up there with the best i have seen in any form of metalworking.

nice vid, TF...again.


side note:
It must be refreshing to have a lot of growed up ballers at your field...it seems like I've only been able to battle with kids recently...

You're wrong about the setups. The body being a simple tube, all top and bottom pieces having the exact same features with respect to the front of the tube, can use the same program and the same setup. The difference between RF, LF and CF may require the tube to be turned for that operation, but if there's a 4th axis in there it can be rotated with a simple command. The boring operations are easier on a tube as well; just chuck it up in a standard lathe.

Siress,

Isn't this assuming that you are using a tube? Making it from billet would require more steps.

TF

you can get extruded rods of equal quality and such to blocks of billet. same stuff, comes in a different shape.

i would see no reason to making a tube out of a square block in a production gun. maybe for prototyping, but not a production piece. i have not looked that the part geometries to well, it depends on if the square fixture points are machined in or bolted on.

reminds me i need to call CCM and see if they will make me a .679 back for my phantom kit ...


good to see you back, you old attention whore, TF! ;)

Vey nice jason! thanks for teh propses!

TF-you continue to bring awesome reviews and manuals to the sport! Thanks for everything you do for the pumpers! Your contributions have helped many and i think you hit another home run with this one!

TF - Can you take a picture from the back of the marker with the right feed breach and feedneck on?

I want to get an idea of how much of a right feed this actually is. For example, the Phantom right feed is a right feed but the line of sight is still kinda blocked and the WGP right feed is a beauty and sighting down the barrel is easy.

Thanks.

Thanks man.

I was thinking about you this week when I was desperately attempting to do math converting efficiency numbers on my T2 and comparing them to my S6. I thought to myself - Frigging CP should be doing this - he has a damned degree in it - I am just a mere philosopher!

It was not pretty by the way - Pi is something you eat and is spelled wrong to me!

TF

This is with a stock class feed - but you get the idea of the site picture - it is REALLY out of the way:



TF


p.s. For more drool material:

Jeff,

All props to you guys. You are a great group of guys who just do YOUR thang. I am always impressed with that.

Say what up - what up - to the boys with the Vision from the 3rd Eye.

TF

i saw. but you shouldn't think about me on Saturday night TF, you should be thinking about your wife. ;)

i dont have the degree yet, but that will change in less then 6 months. so thats a win for me.

as far as efficiency testing, we are working on a new test ourselves, using weight instead of pressure. this is how we did comparative efficiency testing and you should have all the equipment to do it (maybe you need the gauge, but thats it) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSf_sdNygHM...re=channel_page

Hmmm, not really. The block is in the middle still as far as I can tell from that pic. Can you do one with the feedneck for hoppers please?

Thanks.

the setups themselves would be easier, you'd just have more of them to do. the actual machining would be easier but if you're paying a machinist to test and fit multiple pieces together, it can be tricky and require backtracking. I'm sure the main reason the cost of this is a little more was simply the new parts and fitment options and the R+D required to get it all to work together. I know how dificule it is to make gun parts, an entire gun would be quite a chore.


I am just used to long and difucult setups on what i make at work, most of these parts would likely be pretty easy. I'de rather tackle making a T2 than milling an S6 body, but all the diffrent pieces presents its own issues. When i stop being so broke i want to nab a T2 for sure.

P.S. Holy Crap, that Stock class feed T2 looks amazing TF!

CP,

This is EXACTLY what I am doing - I need a better guage (like yours) and I need to get a scuba (I am kicking myself for selling mine).

I agree on all your methods - I will likely only need to expend about 500 PSI (40 - 60 shots) to get a decent sample for what I am doing.

I then take that number - divide it to get how many PSI I am expending per shot - then divide it into 2700 (3000 psi fill, minus 300 because that is when drop off would begin) and get a total.

I compare that to the other gun I am using (in this case T2 v S6) and get a DECENT (not as accurate as what you are doing) measurement of efficiency comparison.

Frankly, if I were to find out they were within a margin of error of + / 4 percent - I would not care all that much - but what I am initially finding is that it is something like 30 to 40%.

I can see why you get off on this - and having a partner in crime like Bryce makes it all the better.

MAN is that guy looking fit or what? I STILL need to send him his prize for loosing all that weight (Sorry Bryce - you look great man!)

TF

Philey,

In the first pic - not the PIN in the center of the marker - see how the left side of the feedblock is at the center line?

TF

Oh yeah, I see it now. But it's not completely out of the way. Kinda like the Phantom.

get off on this stuff?

maybe at first. until reality sinks in and you find out that the guy actually coming to the table with numbers and data is in fact the most hated man at the table. people don't like to be wrong, and they esp dont like snarky 22 year olds telling them that. i do get a pay off though, and thats knowing, rather then thinking things. you can think whatever you want, knowing things is totally a different story.

though this is not a terribly controversial topic, so knock yourself out. now the alien sweep (backspin) bolt test we are gonna publish ... well ... we'll see when we get to that.

Don't lie - part of you likes to have the data - and say the stuff that no one else wants to hear! ;)

I like it too when teaching Philosophy - that is part of the reason why I do it. You will not make a lot of friends - but you don't NEED a lot of friends to be happy. One or two REALLY good ones will do!

The rest are just acquaintances.

TF

oh yeah, i like having the data then im not just saying things i think, its things i know. its not an opinion, but an interpretation of data. if someone else can interpret the data differently, thats fine, but thats a whole different ball game then opinions being sounded off against each other in one never ending argument about whos edick is bigger. people take that attitude as arrogance, but who is more arrogant - they guy who can show you he is right, or the guy who claims to be right based on nothing at all?

Maybe you should just post a picture of your penis in the original topic and then you can get that out of the way. ;)

TF

something tells me ill be banned off more forums if i did that ...

If you did - you could simply tell yourself they banned you out of envy.

TF

Bringing my reply to this into the thread, instead of PMs; paraphrased, since I didn't save it... <_<

There is no benefit from using bar stock(billet and ingot) instead of extrusions (tube). The process that forms the material is the same, and before that there is no difference either. There is, however, a manufacturing benefit from using the tube instead of the bar stock (a rod in this case) because the end product requires a large hole through the entire part. Instead of drilling it out on your own, you can pay less (or sometimes the same) for the material and have a significant drop in the production costs.

Surface finish, for paintball guns the tolerances aren't close enough to require improved tooling instead of other, FAR cheaper methods; tumble polishing, chemical bath, roller burnishing for the inside, etc.

R&D, there's really nothing new here. If they had to research how to fasten two tubes together, they wouldn't be a manufacture of such well made products as CCM creates. Sure, it's possible they thought it over and realized better ways of doing it than previously thought, but they don't have to investigate the physical properties involved.

Think about this, if you want to make a cocker body with as little extra material on it as possible, and make as cheap to machine as possible, how would it be done? Answer: T2.

who says i dont say that already?

okay we are ranting and raving. can we be civil please. or x will close this thread

I have heard off penis envy, maybe they will have ban envy :P

I will post info once I have my T2 in my dirty little hands :)

when i think about it i believe one of the single most important words used in that quote is the word "market". I think there is a heavy business side of the sport that we often don't even consider.

I'll quote hard8mike from the gear thread

now this was in relation to old gear being sold after new stuff has come out, but i think what i found as interesting was the fact that they sold off the old stuff but not too cheap as to keep the value of the new stuff coming out. Why buy 2009 gear for $150 when i could buy 2008 gear for half that. then just wait until 2010 to get the 09 gear...

Basically if they opt to price this at a price too cheap, they might devalue their existing products. Maybe the S6 and J2L value start to heavily drop based on the release of a newer product that is cheaper. overall it's better to say you offering more bang for the buck (mulitple breaches, up and coming new barrel system type thing, smoother looking A/T, super frickin sweet pump handle, and lightness) at the same price as the earlier models? It's a better value.

Also perhaps "lightness" has become a comodity worth including in the price. People strive to achieve lightness so perhaps in creating this gun that was taken into consideration.

who knows?

Well said, UD. Those reasons are exactly why I said that I guess it's what CCM has to do in order to keep doing what they are doing. I'm confident that a T2, just one configuration, for $300 would really bite into their $600 S6 market. However, if they can balance it out such that the profit margin on the two is approximately equal, they would expand their customer base and units sold. Personally, the only setup I'd ever use on the T2 would be the center feed midblock (I think that's what they call it) with a hopper. (I never use a hopper though, but I cannot use a sniper with a stick feed...so, no snipers for me)

Siress,

Great post - I know a very little about machining and NOTHING about the business side of machining.

If you think, though, how much money it would take to make a similar marker for yourself - it would be substantial.

Buy a sniper, mill it to half block, get a CCM kit, a good reg, and a good barrel. You are talking about the MAP pricing of a T2. I think what will need to happen to see this price come down substantially is for CCM to have competition for the T2 - and that isn't likely to happen. Sadly.

TF

I can say the same thing about everything made via industrialized process and most things made in foreign countries. Ever tried making your own spoon? I don't mean a zip tie and tin foil, make-shift spoon. I mean a spoon that would look at home in your everyday silverware. Seriously, try it some time if you like working with your hands.

In production, the cost per unit goes down as units increase until you reach the limit of your abilities to produce. Also, you can streamline the process; proprietary fixtures having the biggest impact.


[stream of consciousness] If I actually wanted to make my own T2, I would buy a cheap cocker body in good condition; any will do. Then I would mill a 1.05" OD around the top and bottom tubes respectively as deep as the tooling would allow. Then I would cut the body in half, chuck the pieces up in a lathe on the precision OD's just machined and create a 1" OD precision finish for the length of the tubes. Next, I would drill and tap the bottom tube for the two screws that'll fasten the top tube to it, and the through holes with a recessed pocket for the screw heads on the top tube; as well as the two small tapped holes for a spider feed. Then, I would fabricate a mounting block to mount the tubes together with; 1" ball mill on both sides, cut the profile, drill two through holes for the mounting screws and two for the pump arms. Since I don't like having proprietary trigger frames, I'd pickup a PGP-cocker frame adapter and use a standard 'cocker frame. For the VA, 7/8" rod, 1" ball over the top, mill a pocket for the o-ring, and drill a through hole for the air; chuck it up in a lathe and create the tank threads and small pin to depress valve pins.

Finished. The pump kit, internals, etc can be had with ease. Polishing and anodizing would be handled professionally (read: costly). [/stream of consciousness]

siress - what are you going to school for?

Starting a honors program at GT for material science and engineering BS/MS (same time). I'm a transfer student to GT, I've just finished a physics AS because it was cheaper than going to GT for the classes.

cool. i just noticed your vocab and sophistication in technical matters really jumped up quickly.

material science .... UHGGG. yeah you can do all of that you want there, less for me to do.

Made cheap is not cheaply made.

On your stream of consciousness Siress, you are talking hours of machining that gets expensive - I think without competition - they can charge this and set its 'worth'.


That is my opinion... ;)

TF

Nice job!

I wants it my precious :ninja: