In addition to some earlier posts.

Play the bagpipes or drums?
Want to play in a competing band?
Want to improve your standard?
Want to play in the highest graded most sucessful band (of recent time) in the region?
Want to honour your existing band committments (parades, gigs etc.)?
Want to join a fun team, who will make you feel right at home?
Want the chance of one-to-one tuition with players with Grade 1 and 2 experience?
Want to travel all over the country to compete at up to ten events a year including all major championships at very little cost?
Want to test your abilities?

If you answer yes to one or more of these questions then please get in touch or come down to one of our practices as we would be very please to hear from you. We practice twice a week from 7:00 til' 10:00 at the Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service Training Headquarters in Manchester. We are a flexible organisation and can organise lifts to band practices twice a week from various locations around the region (Warrington, Luverpool, Chester, Crewe, North/South Manchester, Preston and many more).

Please give us a chance to show you how much fun it is to compete at the Major events and see how much you can improve your standards in a very short time frame. As a band our aim it to get to Grade 2 within the next three years, to do this we need new blood to strenghten our already excellent team, that could be YOU!!

Don't hesitate get in touch now.

Pipe Major Callum Mclaurin - callum.mclaurin@tiscali.co.uk
Lead Drummer Scott Nolan - srnolan@hotmail.co.uk

Like I said we WILL honour existing band committments and will not let bands fold because of our increasing numbers. If your band is not competing then you have nothing to lose.

WARNING - some people will veiw this as a method of poaching, I view it as active recruitment and development. If you are asked to join a competing band see it as a complement and not as a threat. Let me put it this way if you or your son/daughter was playing with Salford Rovers etc. and was approached by a football league side where you/he/she could improve your/their standard...........would you stop them because 'our family have always played for Salford........' would you ever!

Over and out, get in touch now don't delay as we will be training people for competing in the 2009 season ASAP!

Some people might think this is poaching !!!!!!

That's cos it IS!!!!!!!!!

Why don't you chuck in a 42" plasma aswell

And who's got grade 1 & 2 experience in the drum corp ???????

This shouldnt be posted on here ! what about the other bands on here who could lose good up and coming players who cant see through what this really is POACHING

There is no need to post something like that on here. If your band is as good as what you say it is then there is no need to put up a post like that to get players. Ive been part of the pipe band world for a good while and ive seen bands start to get a little too big for their boots and everytime it became theirs and several neighbouring bands downfall. In quite fragile times for bands in the north west my advice would be to be very careful with what you say as I should imagine there may be a few people who read your post to get quite offended.

I would of agreed with the replies a few years back but, not anymore its about time the North West Pipe Bands woke up and realised that we need to do something about getting people to compete again.
If you look at the situation in the area there are only three band activley competing in the outdoor season this year.
Ask yourselves why?
Generally I think the answer to this is lack of members.
How can you encourage players to your band so you can compete?
By asking as Callum has. The old saying is if you don't ask you won't get.
Poaching from bands playing in comps is a NO but if your not competing how can that be poaching?
How can we stop members travelling further a field to find bands to compete with that have large corps of players and want to play at Majors?
This is a possibilty to start the nucleas of a few competing bands having a strong chance of being a force to reckon with. Too many band politics get in the way of this and its about time we all started working together to get playing in comps again.
Ask yourselves how long will it be before my band will start competing?
If you don't know, and you want to compete then there is nothing to stop people joining one of the bands competing and still continue having allegecies to your own band which is not currently competing.
Their are less younger people taking up the pipes and drums in the area most bands have to rely on their own families.
Next time you go to a comp look around, you will notice more bands people from this area not competing or playing for bands in other regions than in our own north west area.
I have had my moan and if don't agree with what I have said then you tell me how as a branch we can expect to carry on when more than half of the members don't actively compete for a North West band!
:angry:

Well put it this way!

I don't know if you play in a band that compete's but say some of your drummers, pipers read that and thought i want to play at all the majors etc cos the band there in doesn't , and then you can't compete cos lack of players!!!!!!!
Thats then down to 2 bands !!!!!!!!! wake up !!!!!!!

Trying to put all ya eggs in one basket!!!!!!!

The northwest should try and get more bands to compete by getting people down from scotland or local players who play in the top two grades to help out with teaching etc.
Maybe thats why so many players from down your way choose not to play in the northwest

If you want to be negative then I can see how Callum’s post might be seen as poaching. On the other hand it does seem to be mainly directed at musicians who are in NWE bands that don’t currently compete. Try to have a open mind, and think about the following points.

1 - If the rest of your band is quite happy to do parades and don’t want to compete, but you’d like to have a crack at competing without letting them down by leaving, this is a chance to compete with us without letting you current band down. Callum clearly stated, you will be free to do parades with your current band if that’s how you want to arrange things.

2 - If you’ve competed in the past but your band is in a rebuilding period and you’re missing the adrenaline rush of competing, this is a chance to guest with us. Don’t forget, under RSPBA rules the Pipe Major or Pipe Sergeant of a grade 4 or Nov Juv’ band can also be registered as a piper with a higher grade band. Since all the other NWE RSPBA bands are currently in G4 you may well be able to compete with us and your current band once they get back on their feet.

3 - This is a pretty good learning opportunity for anyone that takes it up. Think of the standard the fire service band was at a few years ago (second last in 3B at the worlds 2006). Without changing many pipers the standard of the pipe core made a quantum leap forward (second overall, with one of the judges having the pipe corps in first place at the worlds in 2007. 2nd in 3B Champions of Champions 2007). The difference has been the leadership, direction and tuition given to the pipers at practices, and I think all our pipers feel they’ve improved as individuals in that time. There’s an opportunity here to learn something without cutting your current ties, then take some of that learning back to your current band. I don’t see many other pipers in NWE with recent G1 experience offering this.

4 -There’s something to be said for an honest upfront approach. Would it not be more annoying if recruitment was being done by a series of whispers behind people’s backs?

Obviously I can’t claim to be a disinterested observer, so you’re free to file this under “well he would say that wouldn’t he!” On the other hand I think it's an opportunity for anyone that takes it, and it may well drag the local standard of piping upwards.

I am basically an outsider, and having retired from playing many years ago, I can look from an outsiders point of view, whilst I agree , that progression should be IMO, the main thing for any Band member, surely there is a time and place for pushing for new personnel.
Would this not have been better accepted were it done in the "close Season" rather than a third of the way through a season?
Having watched the band at the last two Worlds and at Birmingham, they have indeed come on tremendously and I can see why the aquisition of some more members is needed, I also feel this request could have been more acceptable earlier rather than later.
BUT this is my own personal opinion, and no matter i wish all a good season.

You can tell that you have no concept of what the situation is here.

Look at the bands that have competed from the NW over the last few years and you will be able to count them on one hand.
We had the North West mini bands here at the end of April and there were only four different bands from the north west altogether that competed at that and you only needed four pipers to compete in grade 4. In the grade 3 you needed a minimum of 5 pipers and only two different bands competed in that.

The problem with most bands in the area is they are struggling to have the bear minimum to play. ie six-eight players, it only takes one or two to go on holiday or work weekends or jack it in and thats it no band!

Surely it makes common sense to have less bands with sixteen to tweleve pipers in that can compete all the time without worrying if "can't be arsed man" turns up!
I have been in that situation where you turn up for band practise every week and don't compete and it's not a pleasant experience, you also find the lack of competition starts to stagnate your playing abilities.

As for getting people from Scotland or local grade 1 and 2 players helping out here, it's you who is living in dream world.
The only ones that you have a chance of getting are the ones that have come down due to relocations of jobs and they are few and far between.

Back in the 50's 60's thats exactly what happend coal mining etc and the input then is what made the NW so strong. but most of them no longer play and there is no mass exodus from Scotland anymore!

I cant see anything wrong with what has bene put forward, totally agree with points made by Neil & Dave.

With regards to timing, what you got to think as well is that any new recruits into the band need to have time to bed in a work with a new band. With the greatest respect to everybody in the north west, there arent many people that i am aware of active in the area that could just walk into our band band and just slot into place.

Callum has just been officially appointed as PM last week and he wants to get his Pipe Corps for 2009 together asap so that we have longer to work together as a team to develope each and also construct a strong musical unit. By opening the door now it means that hopefully in September we will have our compliment musicians ready to start work on the new sets, rather than spending the first 6 months of the closed season learning the street stuff. The pipers also get geared up with the sound and playing style. This happens with many bands in scotland and accorss the world.

Callums invitation was upfront, honest and open to everybody. There is nothing in the advert which is untrue. Many of the negative replies are purely down to jealously of another bands success which we want to share with as many people as possible.

And to answer some of the previous questions raised. Callum & Scott are more than qualified to lead the band forward, and local bands should feel satisfaction that their up and coming players are going on to play at higher levels rather than loosing interest....

RANT OVER

I have no problem with tha post Callum put up and to be honest I think some may be sore because they didn't think of it first. I dont regard this as poaching just making themselves available to any players wishing to compete.

For a true example of poaching you only have to back to yhe solo drumming when our 10 year old Cailean's mother was approached by a drummer from the gmcfrs and was tried to be pesuaded to bring her son to them instead. I do not intend to make an issue out of this, but would request that such actions are not repeated by any bands

We as a band did plan to compete this year but due to a personal problem that i had within the rspba, we were unable to compete int the mini band contest and due to several members coming down quite seriously ill we are unable to seriously compete this year But watch out..... We are coming !!!

This could be seen by many a player to want to leave their parent band and join the band of the moment, which may result in the home bands downfall whether its competing or not. I agree that it would be a terrible idea to put all ones eggs in one basket. Why doesn`t anyone take heed off what has happened in the past. Bands have suffered because players wanted to leave their band to be glory hunters with the band of the moment ( a lot of the time, that band eventually ended up folding itself) which very often resulted in bad blood between players and amongst some north west bands. I very strongly think that going down this road of joining the bigger bands in favour of their own as branch suicide, this is not the answer. I think that the experienced players in your band should start teaching and bringing through youngsters. Advertise at your local schools and have patients. Nurture your band. Rome wasnt built in a day. Your band cant just call it a day because theres only 5 pipers. If every band in the north west did this, what would happen to the branch. Those few players in the struggling band are the foundation of that band which is the most important part because this can be built on. Its great to see how well GMCFRS but to put up a post like that does not help this branch one bit.

Let me start by thanking you all for your intesrest in my post and stating that I am disappointed but not surprised at the comments received.

Like I said in my original post and Neil/David/Rick said we are not saying that you have to leave you parade band, who may have intentions to compete, what we are saying is that you are welcome to come and join us for a year or two etc. and gain the learning and experience. This does not only apply to GMCFRS but also to Hendersons and Chorley who are also competing and trying to build competition bands for 2009 onwards. We all suffer from min. numbers at times and may get into the situation through ill health, people who can't be arsed etc. where neither of us can compete at a major. This in my opinion is even WORSE for the branch.

Once again if you are reading these posts and are curious about what we have to offer, ignore the narrow minded comments and read into the positive comments a good opportunity for you and/or your band to improve very quickly for free.

Let me ask you this (again), if you were a promising footballer and your team was short so you couldn't play in the league............would you be happy to turn up twice a week at training and develop knowing fine well that you have no matches to play in or would it just become a non-constructive social gathering. Thats fine if thats what you want but if you want to develop yourself, your band and the branch then you need to get out there and join one of the three (current status) serious competition bands.

If you want the tuition, want assistance for your band or want to join up with us then please get in touch with myself on callum.mclaurin@tiscali.co.uk

I look forward to hearing from you.

"The only ones that you have a chance of getting are the ones that have come down due to relocations of jobs and they are few and far between."

Couldn't have put that better myself. Frankly without the 5 exiled Scots in the GMFRS pipe corps we wouldn't have a band and there'd be no band higher than G4 in NWE.

Macaoidh

I dont know anything regarding your comments re this years solo drumming however are you aware that at the previous years comp it was was discussed openly about him coming down to the fire service ( i heard the conversation and it wasnt started by the fire service ) . I dont think at the time that he was part of your band just wondered if this happened to be a follow on to that. I have no personal involvement in this but at this moment in time it is easy to get caught up in the whole discussion of poaching. I also remember a recent misunderstanding on the same theme.

I've been watching this thread with interest and I have to say I understand both sides of the track, however Callums last post was spot on, I play with one of the band's named and it does happen that due to many reasons you have to pull out of contests, at our practise venue another local band practices on the same night and although we have tried to build bridges on many occassions some people still see this as attempted poaching and never the twain shall meet. Many bandsmen out there are very happy to enjoy doing parades fetes with no desire to compete etc and fair play to them it is your hobby, but the essence of the several posts from the various bands is that at times we cut off our noses to spite our faces, We have a reasonably strong band membership in NWE but we don't have a very good structure for progression for those that want it. Many other branches have a structure where a feeder system is set up , quite amicably and in fact for the guys that do the parades the other branch bands offer help and assistance when they are struggling with numbers.

Let's open our minds a bit here and take off the blinkers, there are enough players and opportunities for this to be a 2 way street, speaking as someone who played with a NWE band when they were in Gde 2 only to see them virtually go out of existence due to dwindling numbers down the years personally I wouldn't like to see that happen again and would like to see us all go from strength to strength, but we need everyone pulling in the same direction.

:beer: :beer: :beer:

Portlypiper, also spot on with your post, thank you for your support.

I, like I stated in my earlier posts will support more than my own band to bring the standards up and get the NW back on the map.

Lets make things clear, here is my definition of poaching: -

Someone is approached and given the opportunity of learning and to compete at a higher level with benefits to all parties - NOT POACHING

Someone is approached to join an equally inactive band at the same level with no benefit to either party - POACHING

From this definition, whatever I plan to do in this area is NOT POACHING. However, I would never actively recruit from Hendersons or Chorley (unless the individuals approached me with good reason, which they haven't so don't worry) as I have morals and respect for other organisations.

I am only trying to do the right thing!

I've said this before here - if the NW is to be able to hit at or above its weight there is a need to concentrate the limited resources that are available.

GMFRS has been on an upwards road for quite some time as far as I can see - from before I was there. It has taken a lot to become in any way competitive in the modern pipe band world with the Scottish and Irish bands. The reality is that the standards are high and getting higher.

If GMFRS continues to develop, being a good Grade 2 band is a serious objective. We have strong leaders of both the pipe and drum corps, and core of good players who are all improving.

The reality is though that if you look at the top of 3A, there are large bands with many experienced and good players. Williamwood, for example, regularly play with at least 20 pipers, and 16 pipers is common.

So for GMFRS (and for the NW) probably the main thing that can get us to the top of 3A and into Grade 2 is numbers. If we had 16 pipers of at least the standard of the current players, it would then be possible to build a band that would be very, very competitive (not necessarily overnight - people need experience of playing with each other - 3 years is a sensible timescale).

There are players around who are of the appropriate standard - and also there are others who could develop. I have found that I have really improved s a player through playing with the people I have done over the past few years - and I think that is an opportunity that others could take advantage of.

Ronnie,

Your post is totally inappropriate, whilst I understand and indeed support Callum's views, I do not support the view that the branch is set up purely to support your band as the top band in the branch at the moment, which is the tone of your post.

The undertone of your post will destroy everything that Callum and Neil are trying to put across and make evryone wary of offering cooperation.

I think what ronnie was trying to put accross is the reasons why we need to recruit new members and increase our numbers. And also that it would only benifit the branch fi where where to progress to grade 2.

And also the branch should be supporting all bands including GMFRS....

Bang on, with that comment portly piper. I agree totally. Support GMCFRS but to write off the rest of the bands in the north west would be disasterous.

I'll delete the last post if people really want me to.

You may remember what I've written before on the same subject, which did not say support one band at the expense of all of the others.

I'm afraid though that it is still my view that this area can only support a limited number of bands if they are going to be competitive - something like one grade 3 band and 2 grade 4 bands. Sorry if that feels a bit ruthless.

I think one of the things to be clear about is the standard required to be successful - I think people really underestimate it - that is probably the main point I was trying to get across.

I also think that part of the big picture is Hendersons and Chorley developing from the starts they have made this year in competitions.

This is my only comment on this matter.

Who is teaching pipers and drummers and how many?

If not, why not?

This question is in regard to beginners by the way.

Firstly, I think that you all mis-understood Ronnies post and that Ronnie is in line with what I am saying and knows that a one band branch is not the answer.

Andy - Fair comment, we have three looking to break into the band and a few other who have been taught from scratch by Neil. I know that you have loads and that we did try to centralise this at one point before that was shot down as well!!

Following up on what Callum said, I still think we should look at a structured branch with more cooperation and a feeder structure with no restrictions as to who is in what grade as this can effectively hold a band back to support another and no one wants that.

From what I understand at the moment Chorley have plenty of learners and also Owen is doing a good job setting up an Army Cadet Force Band. All of these youngsters should be nurtured and if we can set up a branch school where we can all chip in then what a result, taking it a step further why not set up a branch Juvenille band that is suppoerted by everyone and not the situation that we had at Warrington a few years ago when some good youngsters just stopped playing as they were never encouraged to move to other bands in the area.

I know it's the same old faces who contribute to the discussions like this but ultimately I think we all want the same thing, Pipe Bands in NWE to start to grow again.

Only us can make it happen, why not have an informal branch get together where where we can have a drink and a chat and get things more friendly between us all.

Amen.

Firstly I reckon Callums idea is a good one but only people already in bands in nw(mainly) are reading these posts.
What will happen at next years Solo`s/Trio`s and minibands???? will not everybody be competing against each other in the same band?
I think the pipe majors of all competing bands in the NW should offer this oportunity and arrange tuition throughout the bands.
I competed with GMFS and played on the street with another band and was glad somebody was prepared to teach me . I left the street band as they refused any idea to improve themselves(Pipemajor)
I do support Callums idea and would like to see other pipemajors support it with offers of the same

I suspect that a juvenile band is not the way to go. Much better to push kids on in an adult band.

I grew up in Craigmount High School Pipe Band in the eighties. They had a juvenile and nov juv band for many years. They were highly successful in both grades. There must've been at least a hundred kids went through the organisation in the eighties and nineties. When I go to pipe band contests I don't see one other Craigmount former pupil from my era still playing in bands apart from my brother, and he had 10 years off and switched from tenor drum to the pipes.
Warrington and Knightswood were our main rivals in the 1980s. How many 1980's era Warrington members are still playing? Any from Knightswood?
For some reason kids often don't move into adult bands when they leave juvenile bands at 18, they just drift away.
Personally I think juvenile bands hold some kids back. There were a couple of brilliant pipers in Craigmount when I was there (I was not one of them). They should have been pushed on into grade 1 bands at the earliest opportunity (Rab Matheson, then at Polkemmet, was rumoured to be keen to recruit one in particular). Instead they got held back in juvenile to keep Craigmount strong. Good for Craigmount? Yes. Good for those talented kids? Absolutely not. They were probably bored senseless playing the cr*p standard of tunes that the rest of us were capable of.
A talented kid will stagnate if held back to the level of the weakest player in a juvenile band. Same's true for G4 and G3. There-in lies the fundamental dichotomy of teaching kids : you teach to strengthen your band, but if you do a good job your best pupils will want to leave because they'll become better than the weakest older members of your band.

Firstly to Portlypiper and others - I think we are sort of agreeing really. I was in no way suggesting that the branch should simply support GMFRS at the expense of other bands. I do realise that my original post was very much orientated to where GMFRS are looking to go though, rather than the overall picture in the branch.

I think bands in the branch could look to co-operate - that is something I agree with.

I agree with Neil re juvenile bands. I played with Knightswood. I am aware of one person from that period. He is a leading solo piper and member of FMM. He was completely held back at Knightswood and left - so it didn't benefit him really. No-one else really appears to have come through (I am sure there is someone somewhere - but certainly no great numbers).

I also hated parent power at Knightswood. There was an extremely strong committee who seemed to think that we should do things like put band practice before revision at exam periods, and that we should attend absolutely every competition of the season without question - and generally do whatever the committee said without question. (Edit - Callum says that he does know a number of x-Knightswood people - and my knowledge is limited - so maybe it was successful in developing people who would go on after 18!!)

I left before I got into doing external exams because their outlook was unacceptable to me. The thing is it is probably I would still have gone to most practices - its just that their outlook wasn't that if I was to say 'I need to study and won't be at practice' they would accept it unconditionally - which was my expectation of them.

Some good points by all....

I grew up in a more recent N/J band and totally agree with Neil and Ronnie's points about pipers being held back. After i left the Burntisland band, things changed and they formed an adult band in 3A but it created a more open door. I look around the pipe band world now, 3 are with Boghall, 2 with Power, 4 Played in Dysart last year, 2 in Strathclyde Police and 1 is reported to be knocking on the door of Shotts.

With regards to Suzi's post about the competitions, i dont think anybody in the area would want to see that and i dont think it would ever get to the stage where everybody was playing for one band. However it would be a bloody good band.

As Callum said we are teaching our own as well and have been for a while. As most of you will know we have had a Developement band set up to nuture our "home" grown talent, this was succeful in the fact that all the kids are now breaking into the grade 3 band, and a few of the others are having sucess elsewhere, such as Davo in the Henederson band.

It was said as well about PMs arranging for tution through other bands, well i know for a fact that if any band wants it, we can arrange for a group of us including Callum & Scott to work with a band. We already have one of our pipers, Janet, working with Owen and the Kids at the Cadet force band.

In reply to Neilm's post, I think only two people from the Warrrington Juvenile band are still playing in pipe bands, one in Chorley and one in GMFS.

Bernard our P/M is starting classes for learner pipers and drummers soon on a Monday evening at Padgate from 6.00pm to 7.00pm hopfully they will eventually go into the main grade 4b band.

Why would you want anyone from a grade 3 coming to teach ya, when you might only be slightly better than the person your teaching????

Davie, you dont have to be a grade 1 standard player to be a good teacher, and even if that was the case it may be quite possible that top grade players might actually play in a grade 3 or even grade 4 band. I know that there are some outstanding, experienced players in this branch that would have a hell of a lot to offer in tuition and progression.

I'm not saying that you have te be of grade 1 standard to teach !
I know some very good players down that way who could help out with piping and drumming in the area, but i just don't get why this band is trying to poach, and put itself down as this super band that will teach everyone that needs it!!
Im sure the other PM'S and L/D in the area are doing well with there young one's
without help from this super band!!!!

The best way to get people in a band is start winning and people will come, but for now try and get in the prizes at the majors

Good point Brigadoon.

Davie, very narrow minded of you to think that you cannot learn from other in the branch. Can you let me know which band you come from etc. so that I know to stay well clear!

For you other open minded people the assistance is their if required and like brigadoon says you don't have to be the worlds best player to be a good teacher. I know well respected judges and tutors who are themselves not great players.

Davie,

Quick question. Is there any way in which a band could actively recruit experienced members that would not in your view be poaching?

Regarding your 'can a grade 4 band really learn much from a Grade 3 band' question (apologies for paraphraseing), you might want to check out the playing history of the individual members who are offering to teach.

As for the comment about trying to get prizes at the majors, well you have to actually go to the majors, which most of the bands in NW England rarely do. With the exception of GMFRS, Hendersons and Chorley the idea of playing at the majors seems to either not be on the agenda or is so far over the horizon as to be out of view. That's why we're asking if there's anyone out there who'd be interested in coming to the majors with us . Gotta be in it to win it!

I don't need to check the playing history ya pm is the only one to play at a high level and that was DUT who were only a mid table band.

At the end of the day your trying to poach, no matter how you dress it up
And the last one about " gotta be in it to win it " well had a wee look at ya at Birmingham, if ya keep playing like that ya won't ! :rolleyes2:

Anyway my bands not down there so ya canny poach of us, so of ta give um a blow fa sat!

Davie,

For someone who claims not to be from round here it is quite interesting that you know the intimate details of the playing history of the GMFRS members, quite unusual I would have thought without having some inside knowledge, perhaps you are trying to throw us off the scent a little as to who you really are and have an axe to grind with someone, comments about how the band played at Birmingham make you sound like a spoilt child having a tantrum. I don't know what you are used to but this is a civilised forum, if you don't like how we do things then my suggestion to you would be to go to your practise, enjoy your weekend and stop trying to stir trouble in another branch and for the record I don't play for GMFRS.

P.S There are plenty other forums around if you want to try those !!!!

:dont know: :dont know: :dont know:

By the way Davie, quite interesting how you changed the wording of your last post to try to appear a little more Celtic in origin.

I think not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats why ya branch is doing so well with people like u in it..................!

I THINK NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How very grown up of you, could be worse Davie, we could have a branch full of people like you who are just happy to criticise others to hide their own inadequacies !!!!

Anyway, enjoy your practise with whatever grade band or branch you are with, there's obviously nothing we can help you with.

Regards from everyone in the NW Branch.



:yippee: :yippee: :yippee:

Well said portlypiper !!! :D :D :D

Oh and Davie, you need to get a life !!! :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:

I dont klnow why people like you need to stir things the way you do but then maybe you aint getting any at home !!!