Since returning a lot of the posts back and forth have had a vaguely spiritual element to them. Its been a bit of fun to discuss religeous ideas, and so far we have managed to do it without offending each other.

It struck me today that as we already have an organised state, we could also have an organised church of some sort. There was some mention of a cult of Checkers McDog in the Profiles thread and thats what kinda sparked the idea for me.

My plan is as follows. Each week or so we have a poll asking a fundamental question about religeon (e.g Is there a super being designer behind the universe or not, answers a. yes b. no c. maybe). After a week the poll is closed, and as the answers build up we get a picture of the overall religeon of the region by the majority vote.

I realise that this is maybe going a bit far. After all I would want to offend anyone's deeply held spiritual beliefs. Also the idea that religeon can be decided by majority vote is maybe slightly controversial in itself.

The main aim of this was to add a little more flavour to the region, and maybe form a bit of a basis for some stuff in the RP section. Not only that, but the polls themselves would be a ground for some debate over the nature of religeon.

Maybe instead of a bunch of polls, I wonder if we could streamline it by creating a single thread in the tradition of the "profiles"-type threads--we could come up with a list of questions and just have folks answer them directly (typed response rather than poll vote).

Just tossing out ideas, mind you. Yours would work too, especially if we can't come up with a large number of questions right off the bat--and with the single thread, you can't get an at-a-glance view of how many people think one way or the other. On the other hand, with my idea you'd see directly what viewpoint an individual had, and you can't do that with a straight poll vote.

Hm, this does seem an interesting idea, if only for the RP aspect. I'd be interested in seeing what couldn't be done with this.

I'm totally opposed to a regional religion. If Canada goes that route, I will have no part of this region.

I'm okay with it as long as it's non-binding and strictly voluntary.

Though, you will find that neither I nor my citizens will convert. Well, some of my citizens might, but that will drastically shorten their lives.

I don't like the idea of a "regional religion" but the idea of having the polls and/or thread would be good to find out where everyone lies in the area of religious beliefs.

.

Can I enquire as to your reasons?

:hide:

It is my view that Church and State should be entirely separate. Faith is something that is intensely personal, and is not something that should, in my view, be officially sanctioned or promoted by any nation or region.

By imposing an official religion on a region, you are stating by implication that one religion in this region is superior to all others (or a lack of religion altogether).

If I had a religion, I would not want to impose it on someone else. Likewise, I don't want a religion imposed upon me. Sanctioning an official regional religion would be imposing a religion I do not agree with upon me, and, by giving it "official" status, would also give it a paramount position above all other beliefs (and non beliefs), which, in my view, is a violation of your right to freely practice your religion without undue interference from the state. WHen the state chooses one religion as its favourite, the state is implicitly interfering in your religious practice.

Lastly, I believe in equality, and all religions ought to be equal under the law, with no special status for any of them.

Since a state religion is something I do not agree with and is something I believe to be a violation of fundamental civil rights, I would therefore choose to relocate to a region that does not force me to recognize the paramountcy of any single religion.

As I said in another thread welcoming immigrants from the South Pacific, it is my belief that when your region fails to live up to your ideals in such a manner as to make it impractical or impossible for the defect to be rectified, you should leave that region and give your talents to a more deserving one. Canada adopting an official religion would in all likelihood be that type of situation for me - one where this region hopelessly fails my fundamental ideals, and I would leave it without any hesitation.

I would think it would be an optional part of the RP...

And on that point, due to my nation's beliefs, we do force a religion on our peoples. Organized religion is the greatest tool of control government has ever known. ^_^

Agreed on both accounts. There's a reason for seperation of church and state and i'll be damned to see that happen. However, if you want to discuss different religions, I believe Popo put up a thread in the Christian Social Democrats forum. Speaking of which, where is Popo? I haven't seen him on here in sometime. :huh:

Bweezy, SS.

I wouldn't want to be part of anything that made anyone feel alienated, and I don't really want to test this with a majority vote at the risk of doing that. I agree that individual spirituality is a personal thing that should not be dictated by the state.

I thought I had made my sensitivity to these issues evident in my original post.

I had the feeling that it might be slightly controversial to do in the first place, as stated above. If it makes people uncomfortable, or is against the grain then I will stand down on it. I thought it would be an interesting project, but its not worth pursuing if it isn't going to encourage active participation. In fact in this case it seems to be encouraging very much the opposite reaction.

Apologies if the proposition offended.

I don't at all mind discussing the merits of different faiths. What I do mind is imposing one as the official one of the region. To be clear, I have no problem with free and open discussion, so long as it stops short of the region endorsing one religion over another.

Boardz you might want to check out this quiz that Ess posted a while back:

http://invisionfree.com/forums/NationState...?showtopic=1128

Damn...that was my job. I was supposed to tell you that Popo is very busy right now, and he'll be back in a few days.

:rolleyes:

Thats cool, and we have been doing that. I guess we are now discussing another aspect of the relationship between church and state.

However it really doesn't seem like you do want to promote debate on this issue at all.

Dunno Bweezy, but this isn't the sort of comment that makes me feel like discussing it further. Were you trying to intimidate people off the subject? :ph43r:

Not at all. I am a proponent of open discussion. I'm also a proponent of honesty. I will not have anything to do with a region with an official state religion, and wanted that made clear.

Discuss it all you want - clearly, we have been discussing religious issues nearly non-stop for months here - I have participated, and have enjoyed the debate. What I don't enjoy is having one set of religious beliefs imposed upon a pedestal ahead of all others - I wanted it clear that if this is where your proposed debate was heading, I'd have no part of it.

It is not my intention to impose anything, certainly not religeous doctrine on anyone. I also take your point about the raising of status of the region religeon. Even if participation was entirely volantary it might give the ideas too much credence.

I respect your opinion on the subject, and in light of the feeling against it I am happy to content myself with whatever natural discourse on the subject arises.

My main issue was that it was a breif and terse response to a proposition that I had thought that I had put across as diplomatically as possible, given the nature of the subject matter.

I'm often brief when my time online is limited - at the time of posting, I was about to be booted off the comp - so I made my point more quickly and bluntly than usual (even by my standards).

So, by all means, discuss whatever you want to discuss - I'm sure the OOC Real Life Politics forum would suit your purposes nicely.

However, if the overall agenda of this exercise is the imposition of one religion above all others, even a "made in Canada" religion, I will oppose it to the death - that was the point of my original statement.

I was about to get into a long rant to express my feelings, and before I could begin typing, I saw that bweezy had done it for me and in a far less offensive way.

Thank you bweezy, thank you very much. And now if you'll excuse me, Checkers has an ankle that I haven't groveled at yet today.
:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

Hmm. "Bweezy" and "less offensive" aren't ever put in the same sentence. I guess there's a first time for everything :)

A couple of quotes I quite like:


Man is certainly stark mad. He cannot even make a worm, and yet he will be making gods by the dozens. -Montaigne-

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religon." --Dr. Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate April 1999.

Bweezy has amply stated my opinion on an official regional religion as well. Discussion of religous related subjects is great. Ess' quotes have also echoed some of my thoughts on the subject.

Any elevation of any form of religion to "official" status would mean I'd be leaving the region.

In an RP attempt to create one, I'd (obviously) be on the opposing side but, regardless of "sour grapes" accusations, I'd pull out if it was successful.

(BTW, C-Ton's RP thread was more or less such an attempt even though supposedly aimed to fail.)

well at least i managed to get all the big players' attention :D

I think you have missed the point of what I was trying to do, and could have been interesting in a totally none binding fashion, in the spirit of RP (ie not RL).

I won't be pursuing it, so you can all rest easy at night now. B) apart from the missionaries that are being sent from Nidecker as we speak.

Oh no! Suicide squad missionaries - the horror, the horror... :P
btw - the forum ad at the top of this post was about religion run amok :lol:

I agree. I believe I have already started a forum dedicated to the discussion of such topics. But feel free to post them wherever you feel throughout this region. No need to confine it.

I find that statement funny compared to some of the other topics that people (no names) are willing to sanction or promote in the name of government..... but that's an aside!

alive and well. Howevere its going to take me a long long time to catch up to whats been going on in these forums. I may have to skip large chunks of the OOC forums altogether, so if theres anything any one person feels its important for me to look at or wants me to look at, PM me the link.

It's going to be like this for a while. I'm not going to be online as much as I used to be. I'll try my best to keep up with the map and stuff though. And I'll participate in the non OOC topics as best I can, and the OOC when I can. Oiy its gonna be a long process of reading them posts!

Discussion is rarely offensive. Debates can be rather untame and brutal, but that is the nature of debate. Hey boards, even if not christian, if you want to openly discuss spirituality or issues thereof, feel free to post in the christian socialist party forum. Start any forum topic there you feel appropriate. The whole idea of that forum IS the discussion of faith, and issues of church AND state.

'I've had nothing yet,' Alice replied in an offended tone, 'so I can't take more.'
'You mean you ca'n't take less,' said the Hatter, 'it's very easy to take more than nothing.' ~Alice In Wonderland; Lewis Carol

Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. ~Zen Buddhist Proverb

Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~Henry David Thoreau

I tell you everything that is really nothing, and nothing of what is everything, do not be fooled by what I am saying. Please listen carefully and try to hear what I am not saying. ~Charles C. Finn

The observer, when he seems to himself to be observing a stone, is really, if physics is to be believed, observing the effects of the stone upon himself. ~Bertrand Russell


`Cheshire Puss,' she began, rather timidly, as she did not at all
know whether it would like the name: however, it only grinned a
little wider. `Come, it's pleased so far,' thought Alice, and she
went on. `Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from
here?'

Alice speaks to Cheshire Cat

`That depends a good deal on where you want to get to,' said the
Cat.

`I don't much care where--' said Alice.

`Then it doesn't matter which way you go,' said the Cat.
~ALice In Wonderland - Lewis Carol

If you have a problem with anyone in particular (i.e.; me), feel free to name names. There is nothing to be gained by beating around the bush.

nope. I'm fine with the comment as is. It's not a personal attack on anyone, just of some of the debates ive seen in this region since I started here back in march of last year.

hudson bay Posted on Feb 22 2005, 12:46 AM

armed only with a faith that faith is no use. :lol:

yeah - i noticed that. bizarrely synchronous.

MrPopo Posted on Feb 22 2005, 01:33 AM

Cheers for the invite. I may well do that, but be prepared for suicide missionaries :D

All I care about is a free exercise clause. To be strictly honest, I am completely opposed to the idea of tax dollars going to fund a church I would probably have no part in. However, I want no government telling me whether I can or cannot peacefully exercise my religion. I will withdraw at that point.

I promise no flaming. No hatred. No evil. No lawbreaking.
I do not promise not to speak about it to individal members, on threads, or on NS.
I refuse to be silenced.

And if law is made in attempt to silence me, then Canada is not a nation of freedom.

Wow haven't seen this thread for a while.

Man I do miss Boardz :(

suicide missionaries - what a nut :lol:

Yeah! Carb, tell him we miss him, k?! ^_^

Check the dates Linc. This issue died 6 months ago because pretty much everyone agreed with you.

Chill, dude!

Al - that's a very striking avatar for this Friday :fonz: