From Greece's CHQ:

110 minutes ago The Borderlands of ADN Underground Nations of Greece.

Many apologies must be rendered to you for the recent attack on your region. The attack was planned, orchestrated, co-ordinated and lead by members of the Entente, an anti-ADN organisation. We oppose them now by force because rational debate has failed, and we will strike and continue to strike in any manner which will weaken the ADN.

For your region being chosen for a strike, we do apologise. For the majority of nations in this region, it is not your fight, and there is little reason for you to be involved. It is the fact that Greece, as a region, has chosen to side itself with the ADN that has picked you out as a target. We implore you, to save yourselves in the future, do not remain members of the Allied Defence Network.

Thank you

If you ally with the ADN, you get attacked. If you seek their help, as those in the North Pacific did, you get ignored. I get more and more anti-ADN as time goes on.

This once again confirms my belief that a Middle Powers Alliance needs to be created in order to cut the ADN and Pacifics out of positions of importance in international affairs.

Actually as far as I know the attack on Greece were by common invaders. At least I recognise a big percentage of those nations as having activily invaded other regions the last couple of weeks. Plus IIRC SOAP sent out a call for all invader groups to help out in Greece. Granted there was an Irish nation there, but held up against all the invaders I'd say it's more likely that he acted on his own. Yes, the entente and ADN were in conflict because of Ireland's attack on the Province. We're still negotiating, but all offensive action (which ADN never engaged in btw.) was stopped quite some time ago. Ireland were the ones seeking a fight. Imperial Germany just got drawn into it through an old defensive alliance. Noone has anything other than respect for Kaiser Wilhelm II at ADN and he's now a Visiting Diplomat as opposed to being an Opposition Ambassador.

Actually I believe the reason Greece joined ADN in the first place was because they constantly got attacked. IIRC corrently Greece has been attacked around four times or so while being an ADN member. In comparison the region Cuba seems to get attacked pretty much every second day and Imperial Europe went several weeks with new invasions every day. Sometimes we even got to kick out invader twice a day. :o China was a constant target until they got their founder back and the only relations with defender groups they've ever had is by constantly tying up our forces in an attempt to try and keep the native delegate in the seat.

Okay, I just need to adress this. I take full responsibility for ADN's decision not to enter the region, when UPS first began to eject people, since I was the one asking them to stay out. I still believe that was the right decision and I'll not have them slandered because of it. Consider what would have happened if they'd done so. At that time everything was still very confusing and noone was sure whether UPS really was in league with the NPO. If ADN had entered, we'd have giving them a powerful PR weapon against us as well as risked pushing the North Pacific into a mess like what the West Pacific went through not long ago. Also why ever would UPS have let an ADN endorsed candidate surpass him? Mounting a big liberation with full trumpets at once might have made a fine PR stunt, after which we'd all find ourselves taking a drink with Kandarin in the Rejected Realms. What's the point of mounting a liberation attempt you know will fail anyway? Seems kind of stupid to me instead of concentrating your ressources where you know they'll see results. By keeping the endorsements from natives only we at least had the chance of shaming him into leaving. It didn't work, but it left the region with a problem much cleaner than what it could have evolved into. Also why do people assume that we're doing nothing just because we don't tell far and wide of our plans? As a matter of fact people both in and outside the region have been constantly working on helping my homeregion these last weeks.

Also I find it interesting how people suddenly seem to have made bashing ADN something of a favourite passtime. What exactly is it you object against? Btw. it might be of note to take a closer look of most of ADN's most outspoken detractors. Loop, Unlimited and Moldavi are all NPO, Redcommunist and Prodigal Fenian, Ceaser and assorted other invaders, who seem pretty bitter about us ruining their fun by preventing them in taking over vulnerable regions.

1. Any legal attempt at taking over a Pacific region that is controlled by an ejection happy dictator will fail.

2. I am aware of your quasi-unethical and suspect methods for re-taking the North Pacific. As I've already told one TNP ex-pat, it is, in my opinion, a Machivellian scheme that is so focussed on the prize of getting TNP back, it fails to look at the greater issue of what the successful use of such tactics will mean for the game.

Invaders will learn of your tactics, and if successful, will use them elsewhere in nationstates. Your tactic will make previously invulnerable large user created regions without founders (such as this one) ripe for an invasion and VERY vulnerable. You are so concerned about your petty quest to take TNP at all costs, you fail to see the bigger picture - that the use of tactics such as your proposed plan will wreak havoc all over nationstates.

Based on what I've read, and I've read plenty over the last week, it is rapidly becoming my opinion that TNP's "liberation force" and its tactics are the single biggest longterm threat facing this region. Once your genie is out of the bottle, invaders will use it, and we'll all pay the price. Im my opinion, you can't see the forest for all the trees.

While I recognize your frustration at having lost your region, the reason for this is simple. The mods have different ejection and griefing rules for Pacific birth regions which lead to the inevitable installation of authoriarian regimes. Even if you take over TNP again, the new TNP will, by definition, have to be an undemocratic entity that ejects any perceived threat to the re-instated ex-pat regime.

If those in TNP were truly interested in democracy, they would leave the Pacifics, allow them to fall to their natural fascist state, and concentrate their efforts on building democracies like Canada, which are stable and protected by griefing and ejection rules, into larger more powerful regions.

If you want democracy to flourish, retaking TNP should not be your priority. As I've stated, even if you do retake it, all we'll have is an enlightened dictatorship, and not a true democracy. IN essence, you'll have to install an "NPO-lite" type of regime in order to protect your region from further attacks. This does nothing to further democracy. Do I like you better than the NPO? Of course. Do I think having the ex-pats retake TNP will have positive impacts on the game and will lead to the spread of democracy? Absolutely not. Democracy in a Pacific region is untenable. I refuse to waste my time in such a futile pursuit.

3. I see that when one attacks an institution you love, you turn around trying to tie the attacker with anti-democratic forces. I can tell you, bar none, that while i was delegate here, that I WAS THE MOST DEMOCRATIC LEADER IN ALL OF NATION STATES. I have dozens of people in this region who will back me up on that point. My commitment to concentrating on democratic institutions has resulted in much discussion about new alliances of regions that TRULY support democracy. I find your inferences about my viewpoint to be insulting and ultimately suggest that you fear those of us who distrust the ADN or who disagree with your point of view, and will compensate that fear by lumping those of us who are true democrats with the likes of Francos Spain.

True security is achieved only through two means - being a user created region, and obtaining large numbers of UN nations within your regions. The ADN is irrelevant to larger regions like this, and from my casual observance over 13 months here, my view of the ADN is that it is a large bureaucratic morass more intent on internal bickering, inaction, and failure than it is in successfully defending regions. I can tell you that several high ranking officials in this region agree with me that he ADN is an institution that should be avoided like the plague.

If you want something done right, call on TITO. The ADN has a dubious track record, and your attempts to lump me and all who supported me as delegate with the NPO and other unsavoury sorts is uncalled for and just plain wrong.

I'd like to thank Ananke for telling us where she stands though. We should all think of what she has just said when deciding whether to assist.

I've made up my mind. While I was against going into TNP, I had stated that I'd send my UN nation to Australia and protect their delegate while they sent troops to participate on TNP's operation. I now take that back. If Australia wants to participate in TNP, they'll do it without my protection and at their peril.

Given that Ananke has all but stated I'm some sort of fascist, just because I see the ADN for what it is, I see no need to help any region which aids her cause. I suspect I'm not the only one who will see things this way either.

I'd like to apologize to Blackshear - he is the person I respect the most in all of nationstates. However, based on the diatribe that Ananke spewed forth, I have no choice but to turn my back entirely on your former home region and the cause of retaking it. I will not be associated in any role, even a support role in Australia, that will help return someone who thinks I'm a fascist to power. I hope you understand.

BTW - yes, that last post is a sign taht I once again was "set off". If I recall correctly, someone spoke to me informally about starting a pool to pick the date of the next time I blew my stack. the above post constitutes "blowing my stack" - if there was a pool in effect, you can now select the winner.

^_^

Hello, don't know if i need to introduce myself, if i do, just tell me ;)

well, that kind of attitude will get you far :lol:
it might be hard, but for an experienced liberator, most certainly not impossible.

These tactics are not un-ethical, and have also been approved by the game admin and the moderators.
also, we did have lengthy discussions on what these tactics might mean for the rest of the game, just because you haven't seen them, doesn't mean they're not there ;)

do you know how our plan works then?
and how much preperation it takes?
we have discussed this, and again, have found that this is extremely unlikely.
also, even if we wouldn't use it on the NP, who says the invaders will not learn these tactics?
it is just a matter of time.

but still then, i have serious doubts that they will use this one.

not really different rules, it's the same rules, the only reason the pacific delegates can kick almost all they want, is because of the size of the pacifics.

and as for the rest, the feeders aren't all that much different from other big founderless regions.

the pacifics are protected by griefing rules too ,the only problem with this, is their size.
a pacific can be quite democratic, the NP was before UPS took over, and the SP is a nice example as well.

and there are many others who say exactly the same.
i will believe you when you say you were a democratic leader, i do not know you.

but to say you are the most democratic leader in NS.....do you know EVERY leader in NS?

how nice..
you keep records of how many regions we have defended?
i agree with you that there is far too much bureaucracy going on in the ADN, but we do defend regions succesfully, plenty even.

and TITO works together with who? exactly.
the ADN.

and no worries, i tend to like stubborn people with a temper, being one myself :P ^_^

Wow!

I always knew there was a reason why I would fly off the handle in public forums. Now I know why - it paid off big time with a visit from an NS celebrity :)

Welcome crazygirl - nice to have you here (for those who don't know, if I'm not mistaken, crazygirl is a legend in NS, involved in many causes, including a long time crusade aimed at the liberation of the NPO dominated Pacific).

I will concede that my boast of "most democratic leader in NS" is likely a little hyperbolic. I'd like to believe I was the most democratic of any region that I frequented, which consists of about twenty regions.

While I respect your opinons (and those of Ananke for that matter), I have GRAVE concerns about your plan. I don't agree that it is consistent with gameplay rules, but that is irrelevant, as I am not a mod. I am far more concerned than you are about the use of such tactics, and their evolution in to widespread use by less responsible, more destructive groups. Yes, it requires coordination - however, I believe that several groups are capable of executing the required coordination against medium sized targets, making virtually every region vulnerable.

I also disagree that the Pacifics are like any other region. That is just not true. They are fundamentally different, in both application of the rules (in allowing mass ejections) and by the fact that they need never recruit, as they have a ready made supply of new nations being created all the time. Regardless of what you might say, it is virtually impossible to stop a sitting delegate from ejecting as many people as the delegate deems fit in a Pacific region. As such, those regions lend themselves to non-democratic rule.

Even if you guys are successful in your quest, the new regime will still, as I said earlier, have to act as an enlightened dictatorship, and not a true democracy. Ejections and intimidation of newcomers with too many endorsements will become necessary to preserve power. I resided in the SP for several months, and while they are a nice bunch, i would not call them democratic. There is a ruling elite with a mob mentality that intimidates and badgers anyone who is not in the inner-circle, ensuring that the same group gets re-elected over and over again, regardless of merit. And if you try to make a play for the delegacy, you get publicly outed, shouted down from all sides, and then possibly ejected (in extreme circumstances). not what I call the ideal democracy.

In essence, I think the massive amount of effort being expended on TNP is counterproductive when there are plenty of good regions that are mod-protected and truly democratic to move into.

Instead, masses of individuals are wasting resources on a pointless exercise in a region that, if you take over, will not be as democratic or as free as many of the wonderful user created democracies out here in the user created world, and I think that is a horrible shame.

So, all in all, I think a democratic pacific region is unattainable. THe best you can hope for is enlightened dictatorship. And I still have HUGE concerns about your methods, and wish you'd reconsider. I don't think you understand the long term damage this operation is going to commit to the game.

I don't expect to change your minds - clearly, you're all as stubborn as me, which is plenty. I just can't stay silent on the issue - it is, as far as I'm concerned, a life or death issue for regions such as this one.

btw, feel free to poke around our humble place. Not too often a celebrity stops by. (The last one was Lady Rebels, who also showed up because of something I said...)

LOL! not quite the welcome i was expecting, but thanks anyway (sheesh, you love to make girls blush or something? :P )

and i do understand your concerns, and we have discussed the same issues already on this, and came to the conclusion that invaders actually trying this technique (which is, honestly, legal and approved) is minimal.
also, we can just use the same technique to liberate your region ;)

but i will bring these points you have made to the others, and i do understand why you are worried.

this tactic, btw, also requires a little more than just simple coordination ;)

mass-ejections from the pacifics are simply allowed because of their size, but still the same rules apply (for a "native" delegate roughly 40% of the native population can be ejected.)

and i will look around in canada, it does like like a very nice and pleasant region to live in, or to pay a visit too ;)

*Turns to Canadian delegate Checkers McDog*

Ok Checkers - go nuts. You can now eject 130 nations of your choice! I'd start with that Mr. Popo guy... ;)

LOL
i said roughly, with those mods, you never know ;)
but if he's a native delegate, with a reasonable sized region, he can kick a fair amount of natives.

of course, i'm no mod so you might want to check with them just in case :lol:

Chex is actually a "she". Feels like I'm the only male in this region sometimes...

oops, sorry :unsure:

well, usually it's the other way around, lots of men, few women :lol:

Thats why I like it here :)

Alright MrPopo...pack your bags, you're going on a little trip to the RR :evil:

j/k :D


Welcome to Canada Crazygirl! Glad to have you here :)

*Shakes fist at Bweezy* why I oughta.................. :P

Besides, Chex won't boot me. She :wub: me! ^_^

Hi Crazy Girl. I'm the regional crazy around here.

I don't really have an opinion on extra regional affairs. But occasionally I step in in a big way. If you need help with anything just ask. I myself have dealt with my fair share of member-ejecting dictatorial delegates (ok, one, but hes a nutbar that gives the rest of em a real bad name).

:huh: Be nice! B)

Valid points all round in my opinion. Welcome to Canada crazygirl :D .

especially that point about ejecting popo... ;)

you're just jealous! :P

Lets get this straight - Winnipeggers are never jealous of those who reside in Saskatchewan... :P

hey, at least we got pilsner out here, the only winnipeger I know says you can't get it there. :D

Old Time Pilsner? You can get it, but you have to look hard for it. We also don't get Bohemian, which I love.

yeah, well, I can go to any of the bars(and lounge too) and get either of those. Well, actually maybe not BO at Shaunavon, but you should be able to get it @ the old peoples bar(the Kings).

Greetings and Salutations,

I'm Ambassador Free4All representing the region Nederland. Also member of the Allied Liberation League (A.L.L.) and the GLA. I am not a member of the ADN.

The reason for me making an appearance here is that I am the author of the "Machivellian scheme" as you refer it: the current main effort at liberating The North Pacific using what I've titled "The Puppet Master Attack".

After writing this plan, I first presented it to the GLA for discussion. Next in line was [violet], who declared it legal. After some more discussion, which included us fully well knowing the basics of the plan would make its way through NationStates, I presented the plan to the ADN and A.L.L. for further comments. After it received the support of the exiled government of The North Pacific, the plan was set in motion by all involved.

While the basics of the Puppet Master Attack is known now, the full plan is more elaborate than what people are aware of. After all, we've only passed on the information people need to know to understand what they are doing and how to participate. If one were to wish to repeat it, more information would be needed. But, as far as the basic plan is concerned, "Pandora's Box" has already been opened. That happened the moment it was presented at ADN. From there it makes its way through lots of regions and ends up, well, everywhere. Whether or not any particular region assists in the current liberation effort has no consequences on the basics of the plan spreading, so I feel using that as an argument in deciding whether or not to participate isn't proper logical reasoning.

Your concern regarding the security of Canada is understood and shared. Please take my word for it that executing The Puppet Master Attack against a large user-created region causes almost no additional risk than what is already out there. As an experienced defender I do have some knowledge on how invaders operate, and very few would even be capable of executing it properly even if I told them everything. The most important thing to realize though, is that the target is public. Great Bight *knows* there's liberators out there looking to return the region to its normal government. If a large contingency of invaders were to combine efforts in an attempt to invade Canada, you would know about it as well. The Puppet Master Attack plan uses the feeder-nature and immense size of the target. If the target isn't very large, there are other and more simple approaches to invasion which would yield the same result. Current defender tools are quite capable of detecting and thus stopping this attack when used on a large scale by invaders. The real problem in stopping it comes when the region is a feeder. As such, it makes no sense to me to use this plan to invade anything smaller than a feeder region. Keep in mind that the random update times has changed some of the tactics involved as well.


I commend you for speaking of Democracy as an ideal for all to reach. Sadly, the NationStates system makes true Democracy almost impossible. After all, in the end someone ends up with a lot of power and would be capable of abusing this power. For instance, if Checkers McDog were to decide to play dictator you would discover that stopping that is extremely difficult. In the process the region Canada would be destroyed. This is a risk one takes with every new delegate one places in office, and thus pressure to keep the sitting delegate. Without an indepent press, research into activities, and proper disclosure of relevant information, a true democratic process is even more difficult to achieve. Having votes is easy, but how does one avoid the incumbants getting re-elected all the time by default? Just the presence of elections in itself does IMHO not make for a true democracy.

Let's look at the recent history of Canada's delegacy at some collected sample points:
2004-02-13:<DELEGATE>bweezystan</DELEGATE>
2004-03-06:<DELEGATE>bweezystan</DELEGATE>
2004-03-27:<DELEGATE>bweezystan</DELEGATE>
2004-04-17:<DELEGATE>checkers_mcdog</DELEGATE>
2004-05-08:<DELEGATE>checkers_mcdog</DELEGATE>
2004-05-29:<DELEGATE>checkers_mcdog</DELEGATE>
2004-06-19:<DELEGATE>checkers_mcdog</DELEGATE>
2004-07-09:<DELEGATE>checkers_mcdog</DELEGATE>

In my opinion, the only true democracy in this game can be built in the Rejected Realms where nobody can be kicked out as there the option of ejection doesn't exist. I'm not about to move there though, as my happy home is region Nederland. It's an imperfect NationStates world, and ones region tends to function as ones home. The people in The North Pacific lost their home to a brutal dictator, which is why I'm willing to help them even though their government, like my own, has not achieved True Democracy. They won't, and neither will we or even you.

Free4All

Fair play. I can tell you're very empassioned about this strategy.

It's greatest weapon yet also it's greatest weakness. Manoeuvers such as this a a rare thing and if go wrong, backfire terribly. I think it is more of a case that many would perfer a more conventional approach to the retaking of the North Pacific.

Actually (speaking as a sociologer here), the Rejected Realms is closer to Anarchy. Anarchy on paper is poetic to the point of bordering prophetic. It will not however, be realised, due to the inherent need for dominance in any animal pack. I would prefer to refer to the Rejected Realms as an anarchic-democracy.

Thanks for stopping by Free4all. I appreciate your commentary and the background.

Wow. it seems that a great way to get included on all the thought processes amongst the big wigs in NS is to just shoot your mouth off :)

I wonder who will be the next celebrity to stop by? :)

btw, I would like to give credit where it is due - I am very impressed with the attention we've been receiving to address the initial concerns raised in my earlier rambling diatribe.

It's amazing how word spreads in NS.

I have no idea what I did to deserve this compliment. Thank you.

Actually the SP is a democracy.......

Just thought I'd defend my home region. And Breezy's not the only guy here....sorry bro, but I had to invade the "harem"..... :D