Have any of you ever been to one of those sites where they burn Kurama and Hiei as a Yaoi Couple for being good friends!? :huh:

Now that ticks me off! :angry: I can't stand it. This one girl said and I Quote "If you looked up Yaoi in the dictionary the definition would be Kurama and Hiei" End of Quote Ooooooh I flamed her so bad I never heard from her again! :lol:

Besides how could sweet sweet Kurama be Yaoi when he's currantly married to Mwa? (Me) I just don't understand that concept!

If any of you agree or disagree please type! You'll love what I have to say! :) good or bad! I just love to argue! :P

You know, people have always done it and they always will. And flaming them isn't going to stop it. Which is why we have created a "yaoi-free" website.

Disclaimer to our Yaoi-free site: But if the creator wants the character to have a different preferance than by all means that is his/her right. We're not against that.

But you have to agree that claiming that Kurama is straight because he's "married" to you isn't a valid argument. :lol: Is it?

You know what? When people play around with characters and see how they'll react and behave with some other love interest, I still don't have a problem with that - they're just experimenting.

What really gets me is when they argue nonstop how they're right that Vegeta and Goku really do love each other or Yuki and Kyo are meant for each other. And they argue and treat you like you're an idiot because you say "That's stupid. They do not. They so like girls." And they just keep going! Dude! Just because you read some fanfiction that claimed that they should be together doesn't mean they WANT each other in the "real" anime/manga world.

That's what pisses me off. Could you tell? ;) :lol:

I know what you mean! It's like they don't think men can be decent to each other unless they're gay! It bugs the heck out of me! I have nothing against being gay, mind you, I just find it deeply annoying that some people seem to think men can't be close friends if they're straight. It's stupid! If they're a couple in the series, fine, but when people take two straight characters and and make them do yaoi stuff, it just bothers me. "But you can tell by how they looked at each other in episode 3456.5 that they love each other!" "Dude, that was a look of mutual respect for a job well done and relief and happiness that they weren't dead. They're both happily married and have children!" Okay, so I haven't actually had this argument, but I'd imagine that's how it'd sound. :P Either way, not my thing. I'm not going to say that no one else should enjoy it, they can go right ahead, but it's not my thing.

*~*NansJns*~*

Hahahahaha.......... I shouldn't say a thing but I can't help it. Let those raid yaoi girls have their fun, it's not your problem is it? Yes it may be gross but it's their thing not yours k. I understand though.

I understand where you're coming from, a bishonen you have the hots for and some stupid girl comes along and makes them gay. Its very annoying, but I'm not going to go after them for it. The only time I would ever go after them is if I had a webcomic of my own, and girls started sending me yaoi fanart of bishis, me and my friend created. That's when I would have a problem, because those bishis are like children to me, and are to my friend. The whole topic of homosexuality is very contriversial and your view of homosexuality could alter your taste for yaoi- that's why its best not to argue about it- it can get ugly.

I dunno. I don't really mind it too much. Even if it is a bish I really like. Sometimes I get more annoyed when they start doing boy-girl pairings that I don't really agree with. I dunno. I guess somewhere in the back of my mind I'd like to think my bish is available...yeah...if he was 3D that is...oh! It isn't so bad to make believe, is it?

*shrug* I dunno, some fan pairings make sense, even a few (not many) but a few yaoi pairings were the creator/author doesn't really specify what or what they do or don't like...

what ticks me off though is when people say stuff like Rin and Sesshomaru from Inuyasha...or worse, one of the worse Yaoi fan pairing I've ever seen in my entire life....Jaken and Miroku from Inuyasha...I don't know HOW they got it, but they had like an entire site dedicated to the subject...*shakes head* it was horrible...plus...Jaken's a TOAD! A TOAD! :angry: ....sorry had to get that out of my system

Not to mention Hiei and Kurama from YYH! THAT one is the one that pissed me off the most!! :ph43r:

Some people DO come up with some really bad Yaoi pairings...I'm not even gonna START with some of the Saint Seiya ones...But you gotta admit, sometimes fannon yaoi isn't THAT bad. (Quickly runs and hides behind hanyou-kagome).

But really, is there any reason to bash people about fannon yaoi? I mean, you never see anyone going over the top about other kinds of fannon pairings. Major examples: T.K./Kari & Takuya/Zoe from Digimon, Hiei/Mukuro from YYH, Tristan/Serinity or even strange ones like Bakura/Tea from Yu-Gi-Oh!, not to mention the dozens of OC + Cute Guy characters floating around (which really get on my nerves)

Eh, I just figure that people's oppinions are people's oppinions. If I don't like it...well, who am I to talk about it?

Yes...there is reason to bash it. These people are claiming to be "fans" of these shows and these characters, and then they take it upon themselves to change it. If they really were fans then they would love the shows/characters the way that the creator intended them to be. These people are taking what they are claiming the be 'fans' of and changing it to what they want it to be. That's not fandom, that's stealing someones character and twisting it to what you think it should be. It's stupid and should be stopped. Simple enough. If these people want to write "fanfics" then they should at least ATTEMPT to write them in the original character designs as they were created for. :ph43r:

I agree. Take Yami no Matsuei - that title is not stated as a Shounen-ai, but the mangaka does things to make you think it is, and then will do things to make you think it isn't. Nothing is stated. So of course there are people that are going to put Tsuzuki and Hisoka together - because there is stuff in the manga to lead to that. But it is not officially stated.

I don't see how just because they're friends means they're madly in love with each other.

But I agree with you - there are non-official het pairings that freak me out... DUde... RIn is like 5!!!! So, just because it's a het pairing and unofficial doesn't mean we're for them either... the people that like those pairings just aren't as vocal about them.... I think that is where the difference is.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying all people that like the non official shounen-ai titles are raving fangirls that let you know they are right. Because we all know that is so not true. They do exist... a lot.. but it's not everyone. :lol:

I hope I didn't offend anybody... sorry if i did....

That's just...mean. And harsh. And not exactly fair, either.

Look, don't get me wrong, things like that do bother me sometimes. But there are a lot of people, as nie-chan said, who write about things that COULD have happened, but were not stated and uncerntain. I mean...the Kurama/Hiei case for example. People assume it because of the bits and peices, like that Kurama's the only (demon) who can tease Hiei and come out it one peice, and it's not like some of the offical pictures do much to dispute it... :unsure: (If you don't know the one I'm talking about...I'm not going to mention it again) Though, yes, the author has said that he never meant for the two of them to be together like that, but there is a school of thought that says the author's perception of the story is no better than anyone else's...

Eh, I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's really no reason to get mad about the whole thing. Like they say, 'If you don't like, don't read'. Why take thier fun away?

Although, yes, the Rin/Shesshomaru thing is just a little on the creepy side...

To be fair, I only mentioned Hiei And kurama because someoNe on this board is obsessed with them going at it. That's whY I mentiOned that one.

And the fanfics that show what coUld have happened are completly different than people just randomly mucKing up the chAracters main characteristics just to Get their jOllies off on it. That's what fanfiction is! Fans writing Fiction about what could have happened but the author just never did it. Which coMplEtely different!!

Random Example: People that are claiming to be "hardcore DBZ" fans writing a story about a completly new enemy. BUT all the original characters remain true to the original.

OR

People that are claiming to be "hardcore DBZ" fans writing a story about a completly new enemy. And then Goku and Vegeta go off and have sex with each other.

Which one do you think is the real Fan of the show? :ph43r:

Yes, but it isn't right to say that all of them do it. I mean, come on, I'm a fan fic writer and I got a lot of hell for doing odd crossovers...But I only do somewhat belivable ones, or at least ones I can write well. Which a lot of people do with Yaoi pairings. I mean, some of them (like Hiei and Kurama to some extent) CAN do beilivable stories without ruining the charater's personalities. Instead of 'These' in your other post, you really shoulda said 'SOME of these...', because not all Yaoi-writers do it.

Even though Kurama and Hiei COULD be taken as a couple...they aren't. No where in the show/manga does it ever say that they are. These authors are taking what they want to believe and making it a "reality." Since you seem to like this example...here's one of mine.

My best friend, Michael, is closer to me than any other human being on this planet. I allow him to do/say things that I wouldn't even think of letting other people do. Like shoot me in the back with a high powered air pistol(strong enough to punch through a door) If ANYONE else did this to me...I would kill them. But Michael can. He says things to me, and I to him, that I wouldn't allow anyone else to say to me. And yet...I have no intention, nor want, to sodomize this man. Why? Because we are close friends...not lovers. Simple enough right?

Then why is it that other people see really close friends of the same sex in manga/anime...and instantly decide that they want them to be gay lovers?

Answer: Because they don't really care for the show or the characters. They only care about creating things that aren't the way they are supposed to be so they can get peverse sexual pleasure, OR because they feel the need to be in control...and the best way to have control with a fictional character is to make them do things that they wouldn't ever do. :ph43r:

Debating is fun and all but make sure you keep it friendly with each other.

Thank you

Yay Nie-chan! :D

yeah umm...as far as this arguement goes, I'm out of things to say, I'm not very good with debating, but uh I do have to say that both Parties have great points, so I'll Continue reading as long as you all continue posting, and I migHt throw in A word or two here aNd there

for example, P-chan, what If they don't claim to be hard core fanS? thAn what? your argument against the fanfic writers doesn't reaLly wOrk than doeS it?

I don't know, likE I said I'm not veRy good with debating...

^_^

Sure it does! Who, other than a "hardcore fan" goes out of their way to create an entire story about the show? Not someone who just happens to catch it once in a while, that much I can tell you. :ph43r:

well, what if they know the show, like the show, have a great fanfic idea, write it out but aren't "hardcore" fans, I mean, such this is possible, ...let's see I've got a Detective Conan...oh sorry Case Closed *grumbles* fanfic and I'm not a hardcore fan of that...and I've got oh wow, a Tenchi fanfic I haven't touched in ages along with a Sailor Moon one... :blink: I need to go through my files and find all these fanfics man!

but yeah...see my point? I never really was that much of a fan of Sailor Moon, but I still had a fanfic idea...so nah! :P

You are right. You only wrote one. The people who are out there writing Yaoi FanFics write more than one.

Even if they aren't hardcore. They are still "fans" You are looking WAY too deeply into the use of one word. You need to look at the entire argument here, Pup. :ph43r:

that's not true, not all the time...you are making an...assumption! ...I used that word right, didn't I? :unsure: but yeah! some people only have one good yaoi story for a series and than never write another again...so once again nyah! :P

yeah I've said how many times now I'm not good with debating, c'mon Dino, you should know this by now.... ;)

Ok...again, let me rephrase. When I say that they write more than one. I am talking about Fanfics. NOT just Yaoi.

And you are right, I AM making an assumption. There are people out that that write just ONE fanfiction in their entire lives...and that one just happens to be a Yaoi. Even if these people don't watch the show that they are writing about they are STILL destroying the creators original designs. But these people only wrote that story for one of the reasons that I had listed before: 1) sexual gratification or 2) need for control. We are back to my original point...destroying what the creators worked so hard to create. :ph43r:

Well, when it comes to Yaoi/Yuri type things, I have to admit...there are times when it can be interpreted incorrectally. But, that's all it really is: interpretation. Some people, as P-Chan has mentioned, take those shows of affection as more than what they are intended to be. Yes, affection. They might not be in love with each other, but they atleast have a small amount of love for each other so that they would be worried were the other one harmed, and they allow one another to do things that they would not allow others to do.

I have friends that are like that with me. One of my female friends, whom I will call Ailin, is the only one I constantly joke about being lovers with. Yet, there is no feeling besides a very close friendship. It's quite entertaining when, if there is no seat at our table, I will allow her to sit on my lap, and even give her an occasional kiss. The looks of others passing by is quite humorous.

Here is where the interpretation bit comes in. To the ones walking past, we are lovers and don't care who knows it. But, to us and those who know us, we are just very close friends, and do this sort of thing to get a rise out of the people passing by. To anyone who knows us, they know that we are both engaged, and have no interest in the same sex except as friends.

To us, this is a small show of affection, quite like the simple jesting and teasing that could be shown by the males in question. It is just the person who is writing the fic's interpretation of the relationship. They might not have any clue about the true nature of the relationship, unless they were on the inside. That's why, when it comes to pairings that I might not agree with, I just take into account that it is how this person is seeing the relationship. I might not agree with it, but I am not looking through the person's eyes and seeing how they see it.

Another friend of mine writes Yaoi fanfics with characters from anime "Weiss Kreuz." I don't necessarily see some of the pairings she comes up with, but her writing style is quite good. Some of them, I do see, and can appriciate the stories she writes as rather good fiction and a good parallel universe story. That's all it is. It's not a reality, because that is only what has been written by the author. It is her created universe...her alternate timeline, her alternate universe. That's the same way as some of the people on here, I have to say.

I mean no offence when I say this, but according to the storyline of the animes we all watch, is there ever a time when one of us pops up, and drags away a bishi? No. It just doesn't happen. So, if on the same chord that some persecute those who make yaoi pairings just because we don't see them, we would have to persecute many if not all of us on this site for creating het pairings between us and a bishi. But, I doubt any of us would wish to do this, and say what we do is normal. That is how the Yaoi/Yuri writers think of their work.

So, rather than persecute them for doing what they perceive, if you don't like the particular pairing, think instead that it is how the writer percieves things. If you cannot see the same way, that is your perrogative. Instead, look at the writing style, and judge it not on the pairing, but on the writing style. Atleast then, if you have something wrong with it, you have a decent reason, not just because you disagree with how they see things.

:D Ok....I'm done being logical now........I need chocolate.

I am not persecuting anyone for what they percieve...there is no way possible that someone could mistake any type of love between Goku and Vegeta. They are simply taking stories and twisting them around to what they want it to be. For stories like Weiss Kreuz, where everyone is mostly gay anyway, it's not too much of a branching...but in shows like YuGiOh I highly doubt that Yugi and Pegasus will be running off for a quickie between matches. There is no "perception" of anything there other than destruction of someone elses idea. :ph43r:

.... yeah that happens alot on here. <_< The only time I find it ok - to the point where I'm not annoyed, is when at the RPG parties you can bring a date. But hey, they're young. (sorry girls... but you know it happens on here! lol :lol:)

(or when it's funny... like tychou stalking Tatsumi... but hey they're not a couple. Or Tsuzuki hanging around in my room for the pie... but hey we're not a couple. And Pan pan have Gojyo as her nurse - she wishes they were a couple :lol: :lol:)

But we don't persecute people that like yaoi. We just don't do it so it's no on this site. Now do keep in mind that Yaoi has turned into a broader term. Normally Yaoi is like hentai but with two guys - you know it's hardcore. But lately online even shounen-ai has been called yaoi.

Personally here, we like cannon pairings - you know the official ones. I hate Mary Sues - I dont' read them. And I just don't read the Shounen-ai pairing fics because I don't see how the author sees them together (unless it's Yami- I can see where that comes from....)

Let's take fruits basket, there is no official pairing... yet.. it's getting close... I think it's pretty much decided esspecially in the next chapter... anyway, we have Tohru, Yuki, and Kyo - a love triangle. So, we know Yuki and Kyo likes the girls (unless they're bi, but there is no hint to that AT ALL.) So there is no official pairing here yet, but do you know how much Yuki and Kyo pairings there are? I NEVER once saw in the anime or read in the manga ANYTHING that hinted that they liked each other, I saw that they hated each other. (Yes, I know there are even stories out there that a girl mysteriously appears and either Yuki or Kyo hapen to fall head over heels in love with... whatever.)

But the reason we don't say "No Mary Sues" like we say "No Yaoi" is because Mary Sue fangirls aren't fanatics. They don't argue to no end that this is how it REALLY is. Now, like I said before I know it's not all the yaoi/shounen-ai fangirls that do this - we even have some here on this message board, which is cool, but there are those handful of girls that just make you cringe at the thought of dealing with them.

Hey Yumi Kongou, share that chocolate pwease??!! *bats eyes*

Just a note about this thread: YAy for you people! (It's staying nice.) I am watching this thread and once it starts getting really heated and people will get offended, I'm closing it. But keep a nice debate going and it stays open. Ok? ;)

*raises hand, politely* That would be me.

I do not consider myself to be a so-called 'hard-core' fan of Inu-Yasha, Stargate: SG-1 or Cased Closed. I have, however, written fan fics on the previously stated subjects. Why? Because I know the shows well enough to not butcher them, have a good idea for the story and want to hone my writing skills before trying to make it in the real world.

Please do not assume that everyone who does certain things is exactly alike. Espessially in the cases you mentioned, weither it be Dragon Ball Z or Yu-Gi-Oh. Some people really are just weird like that, but you really can't do anything about it and it's unfair to group other people with them just because they write fannon pairings.

You know, it's actually quite funny...most sites I find that are anti-yaoi oriented against certain pairings are actually more fanatical that the ones that are actually for it. Perhaps we are all simply preciving each other's oppions in a way other than what the author was intending...after all, how can you really tell where you're simply typing on a little glowing screen?

(I'm quite enjoying this. Friendly debate with a person who's just as stubborn as I am. ^_^ I also had a dream I would be writing this post before I even joined the board... :blink: Weird.)

I was a bit over zealous with my use of the term 'hardcore.' But you ARE a fan of those shows you mentioned...correct? You don't get familiar with a show enough to write an accurate story just by casual observance.

And with the "mary sues" Those are usually a little more accurate than Yaoi because the character that you are pairing the character with is usually of the same gender that the character would normally go for, isn't it?

THAT is the entire basis of this arguement...NOT whether or not it fits within the story line(it's FanFiction after all) But whether or not these authors are butchering the original character concept by pairing them with people that they would NEVER be paired with (i.e. Same Sex)


Side Note: I would like to thank everyone involved in this debate...it's been a LONG time since I was able to debate with someone of intelligence. Most people on the 'Net make Turds look smart ;) :ph43r:

*opens mouth to say something than glances at P-chan's last comment* ok, well I'm probably going to kill that theroy...buuuut...

*ahem* as it has been previously stated...I think...well P-chan some times you just can't really be sure if they would "never" be paired with the person or not (whether it be same sex or opposite) so...you can't really say that now can...for example

Hiei and Kurama--there are good points on both sides of the argument here...they are really good friends and just because they are good friends doesn't make them lovers BUT there are certain things that you can pick out that just makes you stop and wonder just how close two friends can get, and because the creator has said he never MEANT for them to be together like that...well that gives you a wide open space for people to go frolicing and having there fun, he didn't intend for it but hey whatever works works right?

so how can you be so sure that they would "never" be paired with one another

yep P-chan it sure is FanFiction...so if you don't like it, just avoid it right? ;) that's all FanFiction is, making up your own story with the characters from another story whether it be after their story is finished, in the middle and what you think should've happened, or just "Hey let's throw them into a completely alternate universe" so technically speaking all FanFiction is is butchering the original character, I mean you have to be pretty dang good in order to get every single character and their exact traits down for a story...so in truth isn't throwing in a same sex pairing completely and totally justified?

yeah...heh heh...I just ruined it for you, I'm stupid...sorry...*backs off and lets the debate continue while playing with ABC building blocks*

No, it's not. Because the people that are throwing people into random same-sex pairing just for kicks and giggles isn't even trying.

And you don't have to get every exact single trait down to the T in order to write a 'believable' Story. You just have to get them somewhere within the original design and the stories work.

Like I said with the Mary Sues, The character that is obviously straight IS going for the character of the opposite gender. THAT is within the bounds of keeping the character within the original design. But if I wrote a story about Kenshin and I being a couple. That is the complete opposite of the original design.

it's the same thing with FanFics that contain just the original characters. If I took YuGiOh and wrote a story about Yugi and Tea pairing up, that would be reasonably believable. Now if I wrote a story about Yugi and Kaiba pairing up...I'm not even trying. :ph43r:

No offence, P-chan, but this is where that sort of thing falls under the category of "Alternate Universe." That is why, to some, that particular genre of fanfic is one of the best. You may get the mannerisms of the character(not all, because as you have stated, some of the characters who can be used are straighter than an arrow) but you can put them into situations that the author deems worthy.

Granted, I do conceed the point that some people do get rather peculiar with their pairings. I have seen some pairings in fanfics that make me want to flame the writer for putting 2 characters who are mortal enemies as lovers(though I have seen one for Tasuki and Nakago from Fushigi Yuugi, that while I didn't agree with the pairing, the story was rather cute, and the author did do a small, yet odd explanation for it). But, for some, an example being Trowa and Quatre from Gundam Wing, there is a fine line as to how far the author has taken the said relationship and what the author has touched upon vaugely. It is the vauge notes that the fanfic authors touch upon.

I APOLOGIZE ON MY HANDS AND KNEES IF THE BELOW PARAGRAPH OFFENDS ANYONE!!

There is a pairing that nie-chan mentioned, of Yuki and Kyo from Fruits Basket, that I could see IF, AND ONLY IF IT WERE IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE. In this case, I mean Yuki and Kyo could be, as nie-chan mentioned, bi-sexual. Of the few episodes I have seen(so by all means correct me if I am wrong), they are unable to have contact with a member of the opposite sex otherwise they transform into their animal forms, correct? In this particular case, were I a fanfic writer, I would not have them be in love or even particularly like each other. But, put them into a situation to where they could perhaps get to know each other, and start a small and shakey friendship. From there, I will not go into detail about it, because I am afraid it would offend others, and I do not wish to do this. But, I am sure you get the idea.

Now, were I to write a fanfic like that, I would make sure I got ahold of as many episodes of the series as humanly possible, and watch them all.

Again, I apologize if I have offended anyone with the above paragraph, as that was not my intention. My intention was only to show that if there is a vauge hint(even if, in this case, it was nie-chan's comment), one can turn it into something like the above paragraph. As you would say P-chan, it could be destroying their very essence for even assuming that they could be that way. And, I can see that point of view. But, I do think that they are not really trying to destroy the character at all. To quote an old phrase: "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

That is all the writers are doing. In many people's eyes, that is all the character who are protrayed in fanfics are: imitations. So, if they are thought of in that light, it can be taken that the authors are merely trying to flatter the creator of the characters since it is because of the creator that they are able to use the characters to do as they wish.

*hands nie-chan a half pound of chocolate* Here ya go! That should last you for a while! *nibbles on a tiny piece of her own* And just call me Yumi. It's easier.

Ah yes, they can't hug the opposite sex without changing forms, but as Shigure was saying (before Yuki stopped him) Sex between zodiac members and non zodiac members is possible - he wasn't able to explain because Yuki stopped him ;) but that's not the point. I am a "hardcore fan" of Fruits Basket, I know the manga and the anime - and those two are enemies - they can't stand each othere. There is no way they could be lovers... Yuki throws away his chopsticks after Kyo's chopsticks accitdently touch them. (See I'm one of those that likes the cannon pairings. I like it how the mangaka wrote it. Just everyonce in awhile when there's a triangle do I wish the girl went with the other dude. - but that's me.)

I just don't see the theory, they fight therefore they really love each other.

Anyway...

But what happens when the mangaka doesn't like what you do with the characters? If the mangaka doesn't see it as flattery? Let's take Rurouni Kenshin for example. The most popular yaoi pairing in there is Sano and Kenshin. The mangaka HATES that! At a convention someone asked him a hypothetical question about that pairing... and the mangaka was not amused. He actual just went off on the dude.

*wee! Thanks for the chocolate!*

Imitation is acting like someone/thing as close as you can to the original. If you are creating a "alternate universe" where you twist the original around in a way that the creator does not want. That is NOT Imitation, that is destruction of ones ideas.

And it IS destroying the original creation. ASSUMING that the characters in Fruits Basket are so obsessed with sex that they will have it with members of the same sex to prevent from turning into animals...that's just one out of hundreds upon hundreds of shows/manga that people are writing these stories about...and. as far as I know, most of those characters have no issues embracing the opposite sex. So, they are taking perfectly happy straight people, and turning them gay. Which, for most of those characters, would make them a little less happy. :ph43r:

Quite a bit of argument had used the point 'the author never meant it'. At the moment, the only thing I would like to add is that there is a respectable school of thought that says the author's interpretation of his or her own work is no better than anyone else's interpretation of the same work. The work, once begun, becomes an entity in itself and develops its own meaning to each person who reads it.

And with that, I'll go recover from the rehersal schedual now.

Well, there is one thing that you have said, P-chan, which to some fan-girls could by quite hypocritical. This is where I can prove it is really all interpretation. You said, and I quote(NOTE: I HIGHLIGHTED THE BIT I AM REFERING TO),

For some fans, the males in Weiss Kreuz are just good friends. After all, Yohji was a bit of a playboy, and has had many women in his time. He was even going after a woman in an enemy group, Schreint. Omi, well he was in love with Ohta. Ken, he had the girl that went to Australia. And Ran, he has Sakura, the girl who looks almost exactally like his sister, Aya, who is in a coma.

But the assumption is that the boys are gay because of their profession(working in a flower shop) or other things. One could quite possibly be that because they are good friends, they can't possibly like girls, they have to be in a homosexual relationship with each other.

Do you see what I mean now? It is all based on perception. That's why people can say that Hiei and Kurama are lovers, Trowa and Quatre, and the boys from Weiss Kreuz are lovers. For all we know, the mangaka could have intended it to be taken that way, or he could not have. For Kenshin's mangaka, he doesn't like the Kenshin/Sano pairing. But, what about the others? Unless you truely know what the creator intended, you can't say what he deemed was going to happen between the characters.

I apologize if this is taken incorrectally. Again, that is not my intention.

Well, for one...that was just a poke of fun at how Overly-bishounen the guys in that show are. ;)

And from watching the show, it is quite obvious that they are not gay...since they all seem to be in love with a FEMALE. Now, unless they are actually women who like to dress up as men, they are not gay. It is NOT a matter of interpretation when the interpretation is wrong. When a male character goes after the female character(s), there is NO WAY of interpreting that as that male being interested in other males, unless you throw in random theories like "oh! but maybe he is only going after all these girls because he can't bear the fact that the guy he is in love with doesn't love him back!" There is nothing to support this "theory" it was created simply as an excuse as to why they "could be a couple." :ph43r:

Okay, I've stayed out of this debate as long as I could, but I'm too tempted to say something now. (I think Nie-Chan has been wondering when I would come in since I am very passionate about several matters being discussed here and she knows it.)

HOWEVER, on the subject of yaoi, I will not be touching–at least it’s not the main focus of my ranting this time. That argument has been done to death and I found two other topics appearing in this thread I'd rather raise a stink with.

One was the subject of "Alternate Universes" in fanfiction. This was brought up on the subject of making Kyo and Yuki into a pair when they obviously are quite straight AND hate each other's guts. Someone would disagree with that pairing because they actually watched/read the series so the person who put the pair together would instantly slap that happy "Alternate Universe" tag on it.

Oh, no, no, people. Ty-Chou don't buy that. Making characters act out of character isn't alternate-universing. It's called bad writing. Doing an alternate universe fanfic would be say, maybe putting Yuki, Kyo, and Tohru in some old D&D type world. Make Yuki into a mage, Tohru into a princess, and maybe Kyo into a dragon tamer or something. BUT, THEY WOULD STILL BE THE SAME CHARACTORS. You would feel like you were still reading about the same people even though they were in a different environment with a different plot. Yuki would still be Yuki, Tohru would still be Tohru, and Kyo would still be Kyo.

If I were to write an author and say "Hey, I don't like how you portrayed this character, they would NEVER do that." and I got back a "Well, maybe I was doing an Alternate Universe." It makes me think 'Well, maybe you're trying to feed me a load of crap. And maybe you're not a good enough writer to portray the characters the way they are SUPPOSED to act."

Which is fine! Not everyone is a professional author here and we all have to start somewhere. But if someone calls you on your bad writing, then claim it. Don't make excuses. Be an adult. Ask that person why they thought that character was out of character and what you could do to maybe help them be themselves better. Seriously people, when you change a character from it's original context all you’re doing is making some guy who just happens to have the same name. Everything else is gone and the REAL fans of the show will know it.

Now, onto my second issue. It has to do with this quote right here which was posted in response to the Mangaka of Rurouni Kenshin stating he didn't like yaoi pairings of his characters. Then, there was this reply:

"author's interpretation of his or her own work is no better than anyone else's interpretation of the same work. The work, once begun, becomes an entity in itself and develops its own meaning to each person who reads it."

Oh, I would like to beg to differ. Without this person you wouldn't even HAVE these wonderful creations that you now claim as partly your own. I didn't see you helping to make it! I think a little bit of respect for the authors/artists is very much in order. These people put their heart, sweat, time, and energy into making these things. Then, some self-important little teeny bopper comes tra-la-la-ing in and happens to read/watch it and we get. "Oh, I love this series! It's so great! But I will change all the creator wrote and then yell at real fans for pointing out that all the characters are doing things they don't normally do because I feel I'm entitled to that power."

What kind of thinking is that? How can you be so full of yourself? You didn't even DO anything? How can you call yourself a real fan? You loved Weiss Kreuz when the creators went to lengths to give every one of the main guys a FEMALE significant other. The entire show is about them angsting over GIRLS. And you guys eat it up. So why, then, is none of that happening in your fanfiction? Why are you changing it to something it's not? If you want to see some guys angsting over other guys, go find a series that actually does that. There are those out there, I've seen them!

Freaking leave the shows without guys kissing in them alone!

Hey I only Made this up because I was board oh anyways!... P-Chan is right in many cases. But Nie-Chan has brought one yaoi couple to my perspective...Goku & Vegita what the :angry: is that ?

I bring my anger to another case...Breathe in...Out...in Okay! :o

if you read this message make a list of Yaois and I'll type on the couples I can't stand (You'll be surprised) :lol:

Oh and if I affended anyone when I said Kurama was mine I'm sorry I was just in one of my moods :unsure: (Just came back from a Yaoi Site) And yes there are some reasonable couples It's just The manga and anime world should be perfect and flawless! :rolleyes: But in some cases Yaoi is pretty sexy! B)

Ok, let me start with a question: what is a Mary Sue? there's my question.

Ugh... its late and I'm tired, so bear with me for awhile and I'll try not to say anything offensive and if you find anything I say offensive... well, sorry to hear you're easily offended.

I am not a fan of yaoi or yuri- but since I'm not a fan, I don't read anything that contains yaoi or yuri, thus what the hell do I care what some teeny bopper does to two bishi guys? I would have to admit, I am guilty of pairing characters together to my liking. My sin is pairing the dark, handsome villain to the young, beautiful girl. That could be considered character destruction, since the young beautiful girl would never think about loving the dark handsome villain and the dark handsome villain probably would never give the young beautiful girl a second thought. But despite what the author does, in my mind, I think they would make the perfect couple. My point is, it woud be hypocritical of me to say that they can't pair two guys together that's not the character context. Now, I do try to be careful when I do the pairings, like would I never pair up Chi-Chi and Freeza together... you don't need a brain to know that won't work at all.

All you people are in fact making really good points, but fanfiction is more of a hobby, something to pass the time. People will write fanfiction because its they just need to get something out of their system. Writing, whether be poetry, short-story, novels, or fanfiction, just an outlet for people. Much what I do with my artwork. I cannot honestly say fanfiction is an art form, art is creation and fanfiction is merely recreation of someone else's creation. Fanfiction is just fun, that's all it is. So, it does no good to get tense on people who choose to take characters out of context. These authors and artists have created these stories for not for them to enjoy, but to share the enjoyment with all of us! All of this is mere fun! Not to be taken seriously. The only time I would ever get upset over yaoi pairing is when its done to my original characters, much like Mangaka.

Now, to hit on the whole "hint" arguement. This has more a psychological (probably didn't spell that right) base to it. In animes, mangas, movies and other medias, we might catch hints on whats really going on: like the closeness of two characters, they are around eachother and the affection they share. We live in a paranoid society, eversince the whole homosexual rights movements started, when the homosexuals started coming out of the closet. Because of this new way of thinking, this new psychology, we couldn't help but look over our shoulder. Part of it is because we also live in a very perverted society as well, I couldn't help but notice how many people point phalic symbols that weren't even there in the first place. So not only are we paranoid, but perverted as well- and that can lead into a lot of things, like yaoi/yuri fanfiction. There are a lot of people who think Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamsee are lovers because of the friendship they share- back in Tolkien's day, no one would ever give their closeness a think thought, they would think it wonderful friendship. But now in our modern society, with so many changes over the decades, there's a new way of thinking. So, all this really is psychology and sociology.

Wow... I brought science into this... my head hurts, I'm going to bed....
Topazora

Well, I give. I really did intend to keep my mouth shut on this one, seeing as I do like yaoi/yuri *ducks tomatoes, bullets, ect.*, but I only like it when it's somewhat in character. Even if it isn't a canon pairing, I want to be able to see a logical reason for the two characters, (their actual characters mind you, not some wimpy uke angstpot that my favourite badass bishie turns into at the hands of many yaoi writers) to be together.

And as for the hinting thing. I must admit, I'm guilty as charged. Frodo and Sam always seemed a bit suspicious to me. But I can understand that that most likely isn't what Tolkien had intended.

But, ya. It seriously pisses me off when I end up reading some entirely contrived, ridiculous, character-mangling excuse for a pairing i like. I know we can't all be perfect (hence why I don't write fanfics ^_^) but seriously, making these pairings believeable is way more fun to read. Not everything is sunshine and roses in canon pairings or real life romance, for that matter, and that's even less fun to read in fanon yaoi.

Almost as bad as those Mary Sues... To answer your question, Topazora, a Mary Sue is a usually female, author-inserted character that is the most beautiful, talented, powerful, tragic-past-having individual one could think up. Also, they tend to fall in love with the author's favourite character(s). Combined with shitty writing, they are the bane of any good fanfic author, and a favoured target for MSTers like me.

Wow, so much for a short, contained rant.

Ooh, so a Mary Sue is just a character that a fan has added into their fanfic and has them fall in love with a character? Yeah, those can be pretty annoying, but their not so bad when they're just there to be lovers to a character that never gets a lover in the original story.
Thanks
Topazora