Hi,
A newbie question about the pedal boxes fitted to S4 Phaetons. (I've also posted this on the DOC Forum.)
According to the information on the DOC website and pictures I've taken, my car currently has an Escort Mk1 pedal box. Now, I'd like to replace this with something a little more up to date for two reasons:
1. Move the master cylinder into the tub to get it away from the heat of the exhaust.
2. Get a variable bias set-up to allow better differentiation between front and rear pressures.

So, looking around the internet, etc, the replacements I've come across are Rally Design, Optimum Balance Products and Demon Tweeks.
The Rally Design box has different pedal lever design (as I found out at Stoneleigh, it doesn't have the kink in it - they are straighter box section), so the spacing between the pedals is different, so I'm not sure if it will fit with the column position.
The OBP part I was looking at was the reverse cylinder, floor mounted one. This would obviously require something special to be done in the floor area to give a solid mounting (any suggestions on that?).
The latest Demon Tweeks catalogue only lists a Mk11 replacement, not MK1 (although the picture looks like a Mk1 and it is expensive! :o ).

So, I guess my questions are:
Has anyone fitted any of the above successfully?
What other alternatives are available?
Does anyone know if Tweeks actually still do a Mk1 replacement (I guess I'll phone them about this anyway)?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Cheers,
Ed.

Are you looking for a bolt in item or can you weld and fabricate?

Andrew

Bolt in would be best for me.

Ed

Best bet is get to some exhaust wrap a heat shield a dual master and a bias valve because otherwise everything will need to be modified in one way or another.


Andrew

Hmmmm, maybe you're right. Any idea what my old m/c might be (0.625"????)? Are the pushrods a standard length?

Still tempted by the RallyDesign box though. Need to do some more measuring. I think if the column moved to the left about an inch it would go between the brake and clutch pedals.

Cheers,
Ed.

You don't say if its a single or a dual - I assume a single and if so its just a stock Girling type - push rod - who knows its a kit car so builder could have used anything - every car I have seen is different - However new cylinders generally come with and adjustable rod and clevis.

You could also go to a .7 cylinder for less pedal travel and a firmer pedal - but needing a slightly bigger push.

If its got an integral reservoir then fit a remote as this will get some part of the M/C out of the way

I moved my pedalbox and steering column over and also moved the box down so the pedals were at the correct height - pedals had to be cut and shut to miss the column and get them at the right angle.

It was a bit of a ball ache to do but meant far better diving position.

Sure I moved them over well over 2" maybe more - there may be some info on my site.

Just rembered :huh: - stock Girlings do not fit at the mounting lugs are special for Ford side by side not over and under so box will need to be modded for stock girlings - The single I found 0.7 was from a Capri I think downside was the angled reservoir - But to my S1 I fitted a Dual from a MK2 Escort - all from E-bay.

Either way you go you will need to do some fabrication I am certain of that


Andrew

Andrew
Thanks, that's useful info.

When you say you moved the column and pedals over by 2" or so, which way was that, right or left? Current setup allows very little adjustment either way, but that's mostly down to the angle of the accelerator pedal - it goes off quite a long way to the right. Are your pedals all quite close together?

How did that affect the angle of the column? I'm a bit concerned about that because of the fact that the end of the column shaft joins to the uni joint just where the engine mount bracket is. I don't want to find it doesn't fit there any more! (difficulty I have at the mo is that body is off chassis, so can't see exact relationship, but old pic I have shows they were very close.

If your pedal box went down, I presume your column did too. How did that affect things?

Sorry for all the questions, but there's a lot to find out. :)

Thanks again,
Ed.

Oh, by the way, current m/c is single, with side-by-side mountings.

Old picture from my site



You can see a hole up and to the right of the M/C and that was where it was - So moved it to the right and down.

The column goes between the clutch and Brake .

Car is with John on this board now so its all from memory

My current car is a B+ heavily modified and well documented on here - Pedals are quite close together on that as pedal box is only 10" wide - have had to channel the chassis to get and extra 15mm :lol: :lol:

Will try and find a picture to see if I moved the column or not .



Column and UJ location and later m/c

Found some







Should be clear enough-looks like column did not move - but a modfied box with internal m/cs should be possible but tight

Cheers

Andrew

Hi Andy,
They're really helpful photos. I can really see what you did now. That's a tight fit between the pedals! I reckon the RallyDesign box would do the job, although the accel might need a bit of bending and the column might still need to go down a bit.
Interestingly, your column had been extended, whereas mine appears to be standard length and then the link down to the rack is extended. This pretty much places the uni joint right on the engine mount.

You can just make it out in this pic:

:blink: How do I insert a pic from my PC? IMG asks for a URL, so do they need to be on a website somewhere? :blink:

I'd quite like to raise the steering wheel a little, so lowering the other end might mean that the revised angle would take it under the engine mount. Do you foresee any problem with that? There isn't anything that goes under the engine mount is there (it's been a loooooong time since it was all in one piece!)?

Cheers,
Ed.

The pedals are spaced differently on the shaft from standard and the colum has also been in the vice to make the outer oval in the area where the pedals sweep - you can just make it out in the picture.

I think that extending the rack makes sense if it places the UJ the other side of the mount. - there was no room by the mount - the shaft itself only just clears.
To insert a picture you need to host it - I use photobucket - and then link to it - keep the resolution 680x460 or whatever it is.

Changing the column angle that much may make life difficult for the UJ's so check the articulation for what you are planning first.

Dont think I ever found the wheel height an issue - but then again I made the seats as low as possible and it had a very dished wheel. Why do you want to move the wheel?

Cheers

Andrew

OK here goes with my second attempt to reply....last night I was halfway through my reply and the PC died........along with all the other sockets in the house :o Turns out the dishwasher has gone kaputt and kept tripping the RCD. So that's something else to fix! :(

Anyway....... I was thinking of raising the wheel a bit, just to make it slightly easier to get in/out (like that's every going to be easy!!). It just seems to be quite a bit down from the dash. Quite possibly the revised angle would straighten the run to the rack. I might try and put the old rack back in place to see how things line up.

Any idea where the bits of splined shaft come from for making up extensions (if I decide to go that way)?

Here's the photo I was on about before:



You can just make out the uni joint position and the extension piece between it and the rack.

This is the RallyDesign box (taken at Stoneleigh this year):



The gap between clutch and brake is about 2" and the total width (clutch to accel) is 10". Box comes as either cable or hydraulic clutch.

compared to the current installation (11.5" across pedals):



I see in your pics you'd created a sort of access panel above the pedal box - was that useful?

Cheers,
Ed.

looks a lot like my old S3 (picture was work in progress), the steering column was raised a bit to give my knees a bit more room ;)



Also might be worth a look is the obp one

OBP Website



Being fitted in the Legerra

Hi Jonno,
So is the obp one just bolted through the fibreglass floor? Looks like a metal plate on top (an underneath?) to stiffen things a bit. I think that particular one would be difficult on the phaton, as there isn't a vertical wall to butt up to. I was looking at their reverse mounted cylinder floor mount one, but I 'd like to see one in the flesh really, to see it's size and possible problem areas. Plus, I was thinking the floor would need substantial mods to give it a solid fixing, as the phaeton floor is quite thin really.

I think your S3 column is a bit higher than I intend.

Cheers,
Ed.

The columns are exended by cutting and sleeving - no need for any axtra bits of spline - however the splines are pretty much and industry standard of the time so any 80's euro box should use the same.

Now seeing yours I am quite sure I raised my steering wheel - I remember welding that mounting up after trimming it. That ran the shaft as close as possible to the engine mounting.

The Rally Design box looks like it should fit very similarly to what I did to mine. - Straight brake pedal and looks a decent space between for the column

Yes cutting open the space above the pedals is very useful - connecting the clutch cable and throttle cables and adjusting the brake light switch is a peice of cake.

Would be essential with the rally design box

Cheers

Andrew

Great idea on opening up the access to the pedals. I have been researching the same conversions for my S3. I contacted OBD but the shipping to the states for all I wanted made it prohibitedly expensive. I have a single master also so have located an american replacement with the same horizontal bolt spacing just hashing out the brake line problems. Also trying to come up with better pedal spacing but have been putting off trying to squeeze my body down into the drivers area to work. The OBD pedal assy on the S-3 would involve some glasswork and reinforcement because of the thin floors and the firewall is canted outward at an angle. My pedals need to come down and rebushed or spaced because of to much side play seem to be always searching for the brake pedal. Would like to get my steering up also because my interior guy put a little more cushion in my seats and my knees hit the underneath of the column covers. My brake flex hoses are a little suspect also so will be replacing them soon. Have to many projects going with time restraints so some of my fixes might be delayed. The advantage I have is I have an Xflow so exhaust is on the other side leaving adequate space for mods. Thanks for all the hints.

If you are in the states would it not be practical for you to convert to left hand drive? or does that give even more problems? it would be more expensive i know but still.......

Left hand Rack
Column to miss exhaust
Brake M/C now on the hot side of the car
Battery needing relocation
New dash

I think I would put up with RHD unless I was starting a ground up resto


Miles

If you are up for a bit of fabrication you can convert the standard Escort pedal box to twin M/C's with bias bar - not sure if its availabale as a kit but all the parts sould be available in the US speed shops.

like this

or this

Andrew

Theres a chap on the westy forum, building a superb Mk2

Mk2 Build

He's moded his own pedal box !! ( page 26! )

Cheers Jonno - I knew it was in windy's build on the WSCC site but I could get myself to trawl through ;)

Andrew

I did'nt mind going through that again....Stunning build / car :D

Thanks guys, I am going to stick with RHD , I am used to it and the conversion would be a little to difficult. I am going to pull the engine and gearbox out again for an oil leak fix so at the same time will update the single piston Master cylinder with something safer and with more brake control. Wish it wasnt so expensive to ship larger items to the states. Now it just a matter of finding the time. I am in the midst of repaint and details on a 1965 Corvette that has to be done by the end of June. I am getting to old to work double shifts on cars plus I have a 5 month old at home.. I am always thinking of the Dutton and improvements. Dang there is a dry sump for an Xflow on Ebay. I think I can get all the plumbing in the engine compartment. Oh well. I am sure there will never be a stage where I will state I am finished. Till later.

Would this help



DesertKarts



or



Doug

Just a thought, BMW,s early ones (E21's) used a link rod from the o/s pedal box to the n/s side master cylinder (its position for left hand drive cars) it ran just under the carpet on the bulkhead, it was not very thick bar (about 10mm). using a similar idea would allow you to site your master cylinder well away from the exhaust.

Same principle used on Cinquecento clutches