Evening all,

Recently I was involved in a quest with my second character, Venus, where I received a grade that disappointed me slightly. Not that I hold anything against Centrus: when I asked him, he was able to very clearly justify his reasoning for the grade which was low in my perception. Because it's not an issue I have seen with him--indeed, looking at my own writing in retrospect and in light of what he pointed out, I am prone to agreement with his judgment--I can't help but feel that it is something that needs addressing to and by the community.

The issue is dialogue. If you look at Venus' posts in the Fruit Salad thread [link], they do tend to be very dialogue heavy. In fact, most of the posts in that thread tend to lay the dialogue on thick, and in the view of at least the Divergence crowd, this is not a good thing. I'll admit even to myself that when I see loads of people talking to people, it tends to come off as a cheap trick to take up space and make posts appear longer than they truly are thanks to the conventions of English composition (i.e. every new line of dialogue brings a new paragraph, which is a double space on BBSRPGs). But take a look at dialogue without the stigma for a second.

By its very nature, dialogue is the expression of thoughts, ideas, and emotions between two or more characters. It is hardly a negative thing in the wide literary world, as many of the greatest works in all of literature are comprised of nothing but dialogue (e.g. Hamlet, Romeo & Juliet, etc.). Many complaints can arise about how dialogue doesn't serve to advance the plot at all, and how it is all a load of character development/expression that doesn't have any proper place in a plot-centric composition. I call bullshit. While it can be fluffy and inappropriate, often times dialogue is the most appropriate tool with which to write. When multiple characters are brought into the picture, especially when the character are new to one another, dialogue is often the most efficient way to effect their development, and often serves to advance the plot through the characters differences, motives, and intentions which can only be revealed through dialogue.

But that's enough of my pretense at rhetorical skill (I haven't researched this at all and am simply rambling). I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts about dialogue.

Hmm...dialogue's definitely an interesting subject on these sites. I really haven't done a lot of dialogue-heavy quests while I've been here, but then again, not much character development either. =/

For one thing, I really like dialogue and simply just having a kind of 'normal' conversation that any person would have if he/she were playing an MMORPG like the world. I can't say I restricted it because it wouldn't count towards my grade, but without dialogue most of the quests get a little mindless to the point where I just altogether stop reading. Character development, imo, makes stories far more interesting than just reading how their character beat up a zillion monsters. Maybe if it were an epic piece of writing, but still, no character development bores the hell out of me.

While it certainly does make a cheap spacing trick to extend your page count further, I think it's rather necessary. Every book I've ever read is usually heavy with dialogue and, again, keeps things interesting for the reader.

So yeah, that's my two cents on the matter. While in the past few months I haven't leveled or quested that much and none of my quests haven't shown it, I really enjoy dialogue and when I write it. It just comes...naturally, I guess. XD

In my writing, character development steers at least 50 percent of the plot. My characters make decisions based on thoughts or reactions, and that's what moves the story along. Inter-character development through dialogue drives the plot a little less, I'll admit, but it is definitely necessary (at least for me) to stay in character. There's no way that Stane would find himself among other people and completely ignore them, followed by some rhetorical question meant to move the story forward before any interacting can happen (Want to go to a field?).

I think the main issue with dialogue on this site is that we're not writing books - we're RPing. A good example of a quest/event written in book-style would be our Zombie quest we did, since we scripted sooo much. Characters could interact and interject at the right times, just like in a book where all characters get an equal chance to show themselves in every paragraph.
link

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point the grading system switched to word count and quality, instead of page count and quality. The people getting graded counting their pages would get a larger number from dialogue-rich stories (on the rewards scale) than a word-counter would. It's not that dialogue would be weighted less, it just looks like it would be weighted more (than prose), and isn't.

*pokes Dien* When I ask you to put something in the ModMobile, there's usually a reason I specifically requested that.

Look, it seems to me that the general idea is that grading consists of us going "Great quality, good story, not too much dialogue, how many pages?" and closing it up. It's not [though there might have been graders who did that at one time, I'm not one]. This is especially true on group quests such as the one in. There's a big system that I use. It's why I usually take so long to grade. The topic of discussion in this thread, though, is not the grading, but dialogue and what it contributes to a story.

Short answer? It breeds character development, as everyone has so eloquently pointed out. Take a look at any of my solos, and you'll see I'm a fan of that as well. Hell, since my introduction of Azrael, I've been dialoguing with myself, essentially. It's a necessary part of a story.

Yes, there is a stigma here because, as Stane mentioned, were RPing, not writing a book. In mystery novels, it's damn near impossible to reveal what needs to be without doing it in conversation at one point or another. Like everyone has said before, it's a necessity. This is something I think we're all aware of.

[If anyone would like to talk to me about dialogue's impact on grading, I'm down for that, but please do so in IM/PM/ModMobile so we can have a dialogue and an understanding of the situation before opening it up to the populous.] See what I did there, with the dialogue being bolded? Genius, I know.

When it's a question that concerns the community at large, Centrus, and not just the moderators, I will not put it in the modmobile. If the aim of this thread were to get my grade changed or differentiated, then yes, I would put it in the modmobile. But that is not my goal: my goal is a community-wide understanding of proper etiquette and good-use rules of dialogue-writing are.

It seems to me, though, that there lies a distinction between RP-writing of our style and book-writing. From what I gather, the two methods aren't too far separated, at least in format and style. When it comes to plot and character development...yeah, I can see how things would be a lot different (after all, I'm in the process of developing Venus' character into something more fit for a novel than an RPG). There is also a distinct difference in storytelling between novels and RPGs, especially on multi-person quests.

For plots, the difference is obvious: a novel's plot is its thesis statement, such that everything in the novel revolves around the development and progression of that plot. Character development, narration, descriptions, actions, events, and even character selection are all derived from the story that is being told, and in a good novel (according to most modern schools), will all point to it. Because of this, it is essential for a novel to have the plot firmly established before it is written--either that, or the writer must remember everything they've written and remember every detail so that as they write more, they can apply those things and demonstrate their significance.

For roleplaying, it seems, the plot tends to not take nearly this prominent of a position. This is due, in part, to the segmentation of the writing between the various players, and also to the fact that a number of players don't set out to establish the plot to their quests before they start writing them. There is also the fact that for most players, there is no overarching plot that runs through all of their quests, and if these plots do exist--at least on subplots--they don't have an established endgame. This is to be expected, because RPGs don't typically have an ending date in mind when they are begun. So while there are plots, they typically "happen" in roleplaying quests instead of being purposed and driven. Thereby, the writing for roleplaying tends to be a lot more helter-skelter.

In terms of character development, as pertains to novels, the only details purveyed about characters are those that are relevant to the plot and the rest of the story. There are two methods for this: direct characterization, in which the narrator explicitly states traits and characteristics of a given character. However, the more popular method for characterization is implicit characterization, where a character's traits are expressed through their actions and statements. In part, the popularity of this second method of characterization is based more in its greater effectiveness in memorably portraying the characters; this means that a character's conversation with another will do a better job demonstrating their short temper than if the other were to outright say how short their temper is.

Again, as relates to novels, characterization tends to revolve around only those details which are pertinent to the story being told. While good authors can generally answer just about any question about any one of their characters, and tend to have the most elaborate backstories for them, when it comes to novels, the overwhelming majority of details about a character are left out. If an author is writing a novel about a character's involvement in a murder, including details about their weekend trips to their grandmother's as a child where she would feed them tea and cake would hardly be appropriate (unless the plot somehow hinges on this). By the same token, a character's trivial conversation with the barrista who prepares his latte before a meeting where he gets a big promotion would be just as pointless to include in a novel. There's also the fact that characterization in novels tends to be incredibly controlled, to the point where the growth of dynamic characters tends to follow an incredibly explicit path and they turn into exactly what the writer wants them to turn into.

In a roleplaying setting, though, there is usually not much to dictate which pieces of characterization are suitable to include and which ones aren't. It is generally an accepted practice to include as much detail about your character as possible and to develop them as deeply as humanly possible. Seeing as how the most popular means to accomplishing this is through implicit characterization, it follows that the majority of non-plot-driven writing in a roleplaying setting would revolve around a character's thoughts, actions, and interactions with other characters. One of the prime examples of this that I can give is a conversation that Dien had with Sekai not too long ago in the mainplot quest [link - starts midway through her post and goes into mine on the next page]. Note, if you will, how that is about eight pages deep of dialogue; scripted, raw interaction and development between two unique characters. When it comes to cooperative interaction and development, the most efficient way for two players to use their characters is through dialogue.

What I'm addressing and directing my thoughts towards is not necessarily the grading system: what I'm directing my thoughts towards is the standing stigma that a lot of dialogue is bad. But in group quests or posts where there are a lot of characters, dialogue is actually the best and most appropriate course of action a writer can take. Indeed, the more characters there are in a given quest, the more prevalent dialogue ought to be.

*exhales, and then goes to do homework*

I know my character rambles all the time, so my posts tend to have a fair amount of dialogue, but I always avoid using it as a crutch. I don't particularly care about length, or padding my posts to make them look longer, which is why I don't separate my dialogue out like you would in a novel. As others have pointed out, we're not writing novels here, so I don't feel obliged to format it like one. I know others probably disagree with the way I do my posts, but I personally dislike how spaced-out posts look when dialogue is sectioned out.

Though dialogue is my favourite thing to write, just because of how crazy Fayre is, I also understand that it's not the meat of a story. It's always easy to tell rather than show, which is what speech is in my opinion. Plus, dialogue just isn't as difficult to write as description, so it makes sense to me that it isn't as highly-regarded.

I'm weird, though, and also don't enjoy scripting posts. My favourite way of doing things is to have a rough idea of what's going to happen in a quest (very rough, so as to allow for those epiphanies that always occur when you actually do it) and just let people do their own thing within that. Admittedly, some scripting is usually necessary, such as making sure you run things by your teammates that will affect them. But I much prefer a free-flow style that's nice and casual.

EDIT: And yeah, Shakespeare is basically nothing but dialogue, but I know I don't come anywhere close to his ability to have puns/hidden meanings/etc. I remember we looked at a single line in Romeo and Juliet that had ten puns in it alone. Plus, there is still more than just what the character's are saying. For example, the reason a lot of Isabella's dialogue in Measure for Measure is so poignant/shocking is because she's saying it while wearing her nun's habit. I dunno. I'm rambling now. XD

I do agree with Fayre (and yes Cent, I do see what you did there. Quite fun) on this topic... though apparently we're of one mind anyway, however, I would still like to participate in this discussion. I'll try not to repeat myself what Fayre already said.

I love dialogue. I love character-based RP. In fact, it's what I do, at least in my mind. However, dialogue doesn't seem to be a big issue for me. I admit, I do consciously use as little dialogue as possible (especially when Damek is put in an unfamiliar situation) but that's just his character. I wanted to make a character who was effectively mute (shy and learning a new language), and it was a fun endeavor.

Now, dialogue has made things a little bit more fun, and Damek's personality is becoming much more apparent now... but to me that's just the direction he ended up going.

Honestly, not meaning to offend anyone at all, but my personal preference does not lie in scripting. This might be why I scare away from large quests, but as Fayre said (damnit, I didn't want to repeat you ;_; ) working out a general battle plan, or finding the character's reaction to an event can make things quite a bit more free flowing in the quest, but personally, I think that actions speak louder than words. This just means that for me, I don't mind the slightly unnatural dialogue that ensues in a quest. In fact, I'd rather have the dialogue drawn out over a long period of time, unless it's a key plot point that needs to pass before the quest can advance.

In short, because I started to ramble too, no, dialogue should not impact grading, but I do think that the mods would look at the dialogue for its content before saying that the sheer amount was the cause of a grade deduction. Scripting is its own demon, but personally, I'd like to think that if it's used to highlight plot points sparingly, then it wouldn't impact grading either.

Clearly I'm not a mod, or a grader, so these are my opinions, and frankly how I think that the grading team operates. If I'm wrong, allow me to be naive, for I do enjoy thinking the best possible of everyone and all that.

And if dialogue is a known cause for grade deduction, then I'd say either have fun and don't care, or cut out the dialogue and increase your levels!

Aaand... I don't even know if I added anything useful to this conversation. Huh. Sorry ^^;

Disclaimer: If anyone reading this thought I meant "you" as in "YOU! SITTING THERE READING THIS!"... don't. Please? I'm a conversational and somewhat concise (haha yeah right) writer. I just don't use this whole "one may feel" and stuff. I'm not trying to be diplomatic. Just sharing my thoughts.