Okay, so both of my questions are things that I'm really not sure of. One, I think a lot of people do, but I'm still not sure if it would be considered bad writing or...yeah, so here's my question.

1.) Can you start a sentence with and? I've seen dozens of people do it...but people say that you shouldn't, at least my teachers.

2.) I've seen two different writing styles before.

a. "Hi, Bob." he said.
b. "Hi, Bob," he said.

So, is there a difference or are both right...? I've seen enough people do it, but I use the second one whenever I write. >_< Answer, plsthnx?

1) Certainly you can start a sentence with "and." Most people just don't like it, doesn't mean its illegal. Personally, I vary, depending on the situation, depending on what sounds right.

2) Depends, once more. If you're done with the sentence, then it'd be like this:

"Hey, Bob." He said.

However, if you're going to continue the sentence after, it'd be like this:

"Hey, Bob," he said, "Are you doing anything later?"

#1: You really SHOULDN'T, but there are exceptions. The one that comes immediately to mind is in speech. In speech, feel free to throw a good few rules out the window, because people do it all the time when they're talking. Do what makes it sound good. In normal writing it's generally frowned upon.

#2: See Locke. Period if that's the end of the whole sentence, comma (? and ! are acceptable here too) if continuing the sentence.

Er... not exactly. You can start a sentence with And. It's just something enforced in elementary schools otherwise children would continuously use and to begin their sentences. And it would get annoying really quickly. And people don't like monotony. And that's the reason.

on the punctuation problem, Locke's got the right point but a poor example. Make sure both side of the equation are complete sentences.

"Hi Bob." he said. - wrong. "he said" is not a complete sentence.

However, if you were going with something like

"I'm tired of your complaints!" Bob turned and glared at Dan as he spoke.

then go with it :)

On the subject of And.

It's like slicer said. Elementary schools enforce that you should never start sentences with "and" or "because," because it is a bit too sophisticated for elementary schoolers. Or something like that. But once you've written for awhile, you start to get a sense of what flows and what doesn't. So if you feel you can't start that certain sentence with and, then you probably shouldn't.

You make a good point... :lol:

I'll keep that in mind, though. Now I know what's right and what's wrong. ;D Thanks, guys!

1. Grammatical lenience is key... it's more a guideline (I found a lot of school teachers below tenth grade stick to it) to make sure you don't end up writing a fragment instead of a sentence. I think Slicer mentioned this, too.

"And he saw a bird," is an incomplete thought, thus, the conjunction 'and' is unnecessary, and in most cases, excluded. "He saw a bird." However, there are cases where it is acceptable. Generally, the word can be removed from the front of any sentence correctly using it as the first word. In most instances, it is used with poetic license in place of more formal punctuation like semicolons or parentheses. "And, as most officials would casually agree, the matter of global climate change was one of the foremost political challenges facing candidates." Easily removable from the sentence, yet it links itself to the thought or group of thoughts before it. This could be added to any sentence by just continuing with 'and', or used on its own. It can be effectively indicative of a conclusion, i.e., if the quoted statement were the last in paragraph in a speech. E.B. White regards this kind of conjunction as a 'B' conjunction, in some way similar to how the words "is" and "was" are 'B' verbs.

2. In almost every case, the quoted material (unless punctuated by an exclamation point or a question mark) is followed by a comma before closing the sentence it if is followed by a denominating clause (he said, she exclaimed, etc.).

"Hi, Bill," he said.

Only in cases where the quote is being used by itself can it be ended with a period inside the quotes. So, if you had two statements in tandem, "The glass if half full" and "Fill it for me", it would write out as follows:

"The glass is half full," Jacob remarked. "Fill it for me."

Alternatively:

The wind was blowing hard, and Ray felt a shiver crawl up his spine. When he spoke, his breath thickened in front of him. "I'm tired of this cold."

In both cases, it is implied that the character partaking in the action (or prior speech) is speaking. Only once they have spoken and nothing more is added to change the speech or surrounding circumstances, is there a period inside the quotation marks.

I'm going on strict J&H 15th Edition Grammar . Elements of Style or Little Brown Handbook are much more common assessments of correctness.



... this could turn into a flamer's ball, I can just taste it. x]

Third question, because I don't want to start another topic and cause bad things... o.o;

Okay, so I see many people are doing this with their profiles...

Example (sorry Xantos, XD): Xantos' Profile

Umm, I was taught that you only use it after if it's signifying two or more things...yeah. o.0 And the only time I see it is when it's after an 's'....so answer this? Is the example above right or wrong...? Yeah, I'm lame, but... XD I just thought it'd be a good question to ask, because I'm confused at the fact.

Xantos' use of the apostrophe is perfectly correct. When signifying ownership to a person, title, group, or thing that ends with the letter s, it would be redundant to add an additional s after the apostrophe.

For instance, Mothers' Day. You can either call it, "Mother's Day," meaning the day of one mother, or you can call it, "Mothers' Day," meaning the day of mothers. In the latter case, you wouldn't include the s after the apostrophe, because that would produce something similar to a Gollum effect of S's (e.g. "Tricksy Hobitses"). No, when putting the apostrophe on a word that ends with s, don't include any s after the apostrophe.

Actually, while that's not entirely wrong, it's not entirely correct, either. The rule varies depending on the noun. If it is a singular noun, where you're signifying ownership, you can do it either way. I've seen examples both with the redundant "s" and without it. However, if you're talking plural nouns, then yes, there is never an extra "s".

I'll agree that it's wrong, but only because he didn't capitalize the "H" in "he."
"He said." - is just as much of a sentence as : "He walked," "She climbed," "They left." It has a subject and a verb. But that's unrelated to the topic.

The "s's" thing has been a running joke between me and Uruvei for...I think a year now XD. I think I'll actually look around to finally figured this out. The main question is about proper nouns ending in "s" because I was told that that is the only time one can use "s's" by my 8th grade english teacher that taught 12th grade the previous year...let's see if she is as crazy as she looked(s).

http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writi...html#apostrophe

Lol. If you read a little farther in that thread, the Brits and the Americans start throwing punches XD. The general consensus seems to be that it doesn't really matter. Both styles are accepted....crap, I was hoping to get an answer out of this...I guess the joke lives on.

Actually Stane I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on 'he said.' being a sentence, capitalized or not. It's more of a fragment than anything else due to the fact that it can't stand alone. While it is amusing to attach it to the end of what other people say (quite hilarious, try it sometime. See how long you can go without them hauling a brick out), unless it can stand on its own it isn't really a proper sentence.

I'm going to have to maintain that you shouldn't end a sentence in quotes with a period unless it's the very end of a sentence. Though that's really more of a private matter, eh?

I've never really heard certain situations for where s's is appropriate and where it isn't, but I'm a firm believer in s', since it means I don't need to put another letter. Yes, I'm lazy. If you didn't know that, I'd question where you've been for five years. x3 Then again, that's what I was taught in school, and I've seen it frequently enough to back that up as true for me.

In other news, I need to get more people citing me for things. Mostly because people won't know I'm really not important when everyone's talking about me. Note to self: Do that.

The whole "and" deal is techincally literary license, as in, once you feel you have a comfortable command of the English language you can tweak it in typically "incorrect" ways for effect. Elementary schools do not have this, hence why they say to not start a sentence with and.

In regards to capitalization surrounding the dependent clause, "he said," the way I avoid the conundrum (which I've seen emulated in several sources, which is where i picked it up) is by writing it thus:

"Hi Bob," he said.

For one, this is more grammatically correct, as "Hi Bob" is technically not a complete sentence, and you can continue the spoken phrase after your narrative interjection. "He said," is also an incomplete sentence, as it is a dependent clause without an independent one (meaning that "he said" alone needs more to be completed). However, in the instance that it is a complete sentence between the quotes, I either neglect the narrative interjection (i.e. "he said") and begin a new sentence, or I throw the interjection earlier in the phrase. Take this paragraph for example.

This can also be written:

While it can be called "dodging" the problem, it does just make your writing seem to flow that much better.

So in short, instead of closing off the spoken phrase with a period, use a comma instead.

Sorry, I don't understand how "He said." isn't a complete sentence...I don't see how you can deem that as a fragment when sentences with two words, one being the subject and the other being verb that the subject did, correct. I'm not saying that one should do: "Blah blah." He said. I'm merely saying that "He said." is a sentence. Would "They climbed." be a fragment also? I don't think you can separate the two (meaning one is a fragment and the other is not).

Again, I'm just merely wondering about the technicality of it. >_o

edited for being less confusing...it's still confusing...blah.

The difference lies in the dependence of the clause. A clause is any cluster that contains subject and predicate, that is, noun and verb. Some clauses are independent and can stand alone as sentences just fine. Your example of, "they climb," is an independent clause, and works just fine as a complete sentence. However, "he said," is a dependent clause, meaning it needs an independent clause with it before it can be counted as a complete sentence.

Put it this way. If you can walk up to someone and say the clause to them, and they don't look at you funny like they're expecting something more, it's an independent clause. However, walk up to them and say a dependent clause without any other words attached, and they'll expect you to continue. "He said," is dependent, and so cannot stand alone as a sentence.

I have a mathematical mind, so things like "it feels right" don't really convince me when I'm wrong. If it can't be proven beyond that then I'll just forget about it.

That's why I suggested to use someone else as a Litmus test. (J.K. Lawling :P)

Actually, I just got off the phone with my mom (the literary side of my home, wherein my dad is the mathematical/logical side), and here's how it breaks down:

"Hi Bob," he said.

'Hi Bob,' is the direct object of the verb, 'said.' It is not two separate sentences, but one. 'He said,' is an independent clause, but in the case of the dialogue narrative, the spoken words constitute the direct object that is referred to by the word, 'said.' As it is dialogue, it needs to be treated as an object before it is treated with a grammatical eye. Thereby, when using narrative tags (i.e. 'he said') with your spoken words, separate them by commas as I did in the example before. All of the spoken words within the bounds of the quotation marks are the direct object of the sentence.

*ponders a moment*

That means that 'he said' is one of the most possessive phrases in the entire English language, as it has the most comprehensive direct objects...