Hey, Locke here once more with another point to raise. I have seen people in the past change their character's class before, having to reset to level 1 from wherever they've gotten to (if they have actually done so) and I think it seems a tad unfair that they lose all the work they've done because they got tired of a class. I was hoping to propose the chance for people to change classes, but with a different sort of penalty than a complete reset. Here were some possible ideas I was considering:

1) Pay to change: For a steep price (and I mean steep, like several thousand GP or something, I'm not sure yet), one can change their class. Upon changing, they recieve a set level weapon (I'm thinking level 10 weapon for 10+, level 1 if lower) at no level penalty.

2) All equipment lost: One can change their class whenever, but in exchange, they lose all weaponry for their class, and get a specified-level weapon instead. That means people, when changing, won't just immediately sell-and-restock - they'll have to earn their stuff back.

3) Set Level change: Similar to the idea behind changing to Fist Fighter, Whipmaster, or Archer, one would have to get to level 15 before being allowed to change their class. At that time, they lose two levels, gain a set level 10 weapon, and trade in any heavier armor than their class allows for the level 11 (Light), or 12 (Medium) armor

So, discuss?

This is something Nighthand and I were discussing just yesterday, perhaps the day before. As it was told to me, the class change penalty comes as an influx of IC atmosphere. It's never really something I have thought about all that much, having planned to go Fist Fighter from the day I reg'd, but it is something worth discussing. Nights had a point that I believe he was trying to remember when we talked about it. Perhaps it will come to him.

Anyway, at this point, the majority of the people who are unhappy with their class, and don't want to be a specialty class, are below the levels at which dropping to level one would be a huge loss. This will surely be discussed, but as it stands right now, I don't see a huge need to change. If enough people raise their hand about it, though, we'll work from there.

I'm in no way tossing your thoughts aside, though. I saved them all in a document for discussion if it does become a big enough issue.

That's just my opinion, though. Like I said, I had it all planned from the start, and therefore might not be the best to speak out on this one. Let's see what everyone else has to say.

I can see where class can become a problem later in the game as well. You keep trying to stick it out, and stick it out, and you finally decide it isn't for you...but you don't want to lose all your hard work. I can see good reason to change it from its steep drop as is, but I can also see a reason to kee pit. After all, we don't want people changing classes left and right.

A penalty would prevent this (cutting their levels in half, taking away five, etc.), so it's also a reason I'm open to it if anyone has any ideas in particular. I certainly wouldn't consider this a closed matter, for those interested. As Centrus said, we'll see where this goes.

Yeah...

I'm probably the one who's class changed the most on Divergence. From Wavemaster to Long Arm to Fist Fighter and with Teishu, Wavemaster to Blademaster... @_@; I've lost, overall, a LOT of writing from changing classes and...yeah, I think the GP might be a good thing. I still don't know what to do with Teishu, as I keep on changing my mind on things and then not settling on it. Blademaster and then I want Heavy Axe and... @_@; It's so lammmmmee. D:

But yeah...I personally think it's a good matter to bring up. I should know. @_@;

I've been stuck in a deep rut for the past year or so with this decision. Personally, I've been stuck between wanting to stay a Twin Blade and keep my levels or change to a Fist Fighter. I know that Fist Fighter is one of the more popular classes to change to recently, but I have my own personal reasons for it. I would be able to choreograph the moves of a Fist Fighter very easily since I know Tae Kwon Do moves so much. XD

Anyways, back to my original thought. Because of the level drop from class of being a TB to a FF, I was hesitant to make a final decision on it in the future. But, even worse, if I go to FF and decide I don't like it, I would have to start back out at level 1. o.o

I almost wish I could just give it a try for like a quest or two and make a better decision....Hmm...I'VE GOT IT!!! We need to have a class rental service! XP

Archer wasn't available when I joined, and wasn't an option until I was nearly at the required level to class-change to it when it finally did become available, so it was hardly an issue for me. Also, the change made sense for the character, so it was an easy decision to make for me when it became available and set as a goal.

The requirement of a certain level seemed to fit well, give the character time to 'test out' their role, if they don't like it, they had to stick by it until the level of change before they could change classes was a system I liked. Perhaps, instead of saying 'at level 17 you can choose to become one of the specialty classes' it could become 'at level 17 you lose two levels and can change classes and the specialty classes become available for choosing'.

Charging a GP amount wouldn't really work because you can essentially sit on your hands and accumulate the required gold with the system we have for such set up here on this site. When I went into the Pawn Shop, I was hoping to get an item for a bargain price, but by the time the trade was finished, I could have bought it at the normal store without role playing the encounter. That dissatisfied me, that it was that easy to get the item without trying.

With the level requirement (and possibly a 'class change event quest' it would make sense storyline-wise for the change, and in the future you could make references to the 'before times' and it be the same character.

'When I was a Blademaster' stories told around a campfire by an elderly Wavemaster is the backdrop for several real-world stories even, it would add a new dimension to the game. I believe it would be a workable change for this era of the board, and the level requirement would keep it from becoming simply a minor goal for everyone.

Not that I'm much of one for changing classes (Explosions all the way baby <3), but Arcion's comment made me think of an interesting idea. Perhaps instead of penalizing class changes, have specific levels set aside for an optional class change, old school style. Say, 15, 35, 50, etc. Albeit at more reasonable mile markers, but I think it conveys the point. Possibly throw in the gear exchange, but until the next milestone, you'd be locked into that class. It prevents mass changing, but at the same time, with proper milestones, it wouldn't be entirely unattainable for those interested in changing either.

That way there's no huge penalties to changing, but at the same time it's somewhat moderated. Even, make it be an optional quest needed to complete the class change. Possibly required no rewards, with the class change being its own reward. Attainable, yet not entirely sans effort.

Anyway, that's my two GP on the matter, not that I'll ever look back on being a Wavemaster. But it might help someone else out somewhere, so I figure I'll toss it out to at least be looked at and said "Mmm, nah, that's crazy talk".

You know, this is one of the reasons why we started that whole second characters thing: so people wouldn't have to give up levels to RP as another class...

Granted, very few people are taking advantage of that at the moment, but it does provide ample solution to the problem you face...

With that milestone issue... what happens if you miss the level, then? Say you were at level 13, got three levels in a quest, and missed your chance? That would kinda be bad, wouldn't it?

And as for second characters... I'd say me and Shenny are the only ones to really implement ours now, but even they need the opportunity to change classes. Like for mine, I was considering Heavy Blade instead of Blademaster, but I've got him to level 8 so far, and don't really want to lose all I've done so far.

Aside from that, what if someone wants to change their main because they weren't happy with the way something was after a while? Say, in my case, and this is just an example and not an actual situation, but say I wanted to make Baron a Blademaster instead, because I was tired of the Twin Blade fighting style, it was getting old. After all that work I put into him, getting him up to level 20 (hopefully to 25 soon), I wouldn't want to change his class because he'd be back to level one and all that effort I put forth would go kaput.

The thing is, Dien; a second character still starts at level 1, and RPing at level 1 for a second time can be tiring to someone used to greater challenges.

My point that I had forgotten was basically Zan's above; at higher levels, sometimes you get tired of your class and want to RP a different style, but the penalties make it difficult to do so.

I'm for allowing open class changes (which is why I brought it up for discussion at the next admin/staff meeting) with some kind of penalty.

I agree that GP cost alone is too little. GP is just too easy to gain if you put a bit of effort into a base fund. I think the penalty should be a bit steeper than it is to take up a "prestige class" like archer/FF/whip. Maybe more levels, or something.

I sort of like the idea of questing for a "class change" item, or something of the sort. The down side to that, though, is that someone who is already tired of their class might not want to even spend that much more time on it to change.

I don't really have time to read through all the suggestions or points and counterpoints here. I'll be sure to get back to that later, just have some studying to finish now. Basically:

Second characters don't replace open class changes. There are several assets that are connected to a character that are not preserved with second characters. Equipment can't be exchanged. The characters are supposed to be separate IC. IC story lines and acquaintances are also separate, and trying to take up a new class on a different character probably has a price.

I've noted before that I've been reluctant to recruit second characters into the Swordbreakers because I feel that players are often more committed to their main characters and will tend to fail to keep up with the second accounts when the pressure is on. This isn't true in all cases: Shenmock and Locke do a good job with both of their accounts. Now imagine the reverse situation: a player favors using his second character over the first because he or she is just plain bored. The person has to keep them apart mostly, so his connections with the first account are suddenly neglected. I think it's time we work around that.

Simple. Have players lose a uniform amount of levels and GP. Say, 3 levels and 3,000 GP. Or 5 levels and 5,000 GP. You don't want to make it so high that people won't cross the line because the loss is just too much at once. Loss aversion can be strong, just consider how many people don't want to have to restart their characters just to try a new class even though it's killing their motivation. Any class chance costs the same. A straightforward process means people will be more comfortable using it. You don't lose equipment or anything, everyone stays happy.

And... I'll be back to read everything later.

I had wondered why the cost to change classes was so steep... *shrugs*

Here's a simple proposal though (this may have already been said, I skimmed the topic).

Penalty for changing classes: You lose half of your levels if you're below level 10, or if you're above level 10 you lose a straight 5 levels.

I don't think that's too steep, nor too light of a penalty. Because at the very least you can get those 5 levels back in a single quest (albeit with a lot of effort) if needed, but it's still a significant amount to make it so people don't just do it on a whim.

My two cents. *goes back to posting before Tak cracks a whip over his head* >_>

For the record, the reason class changing between normal classes is so steep is mostly IC. In "The World" there were never demonstrated any methods to changing classes, so we figured it would be something like current MMOs. In other words, to play another class, you'd have to roll another character. Hence the reset; you'd have to "delete" your current character to keep the same name for your new character.

I think Xan's idea with obtaining milestones and questing for the reward to change classes after that milestone is reached (am I getting this right? haha) is the best simply because you're striving for a change rather than paying for one. As a loose analogy, I study and work for grades in a class. I don't give up grades from another. Kind of a bad analogy, but I think my point about looking at changing classes as something to "gain" rather than something to "lose and gain" was made.

Well, this would be a stretch to gameplay, I'm sure - but wouldn't it make sense for the character to become proficient in their new weapon during their quest that will ultimately change them? The subject of the 'changing quest' would most certainly reflect the event. I think that it would be much easier if the character picked up a weapon they wanted to try out, sucked at it, and struggled through some obstacles to become decent. I can't imagine what else a 'changing quest' would be about unless it was something completely unrelated, completed just for the sake of changing that magically happens both OOC and IC. I'm not sure how it could fit well IC if the person wasn't allowed to use their weapon until AFTER the fact. What, does the player strive through a dungeon and magically finds a hacked orb that changes the way they play? That seems a little farfetched - though it's kinda early so my imagination is not at it's highest...heh...and lord knows that the .hack series has done worse than that.

The idea of dual-classing just popped into my head. lol *doesn't want to think of the penalties involved if that ever got passed* ><;

I'm kinda scatter-brained at the moment, so thanks to the people that sort of understood what I meant. :P

I'm with Xan. :lol:

Even though I'd want to just class change then and get it over with, doing a simple quest would make a lot more sense IC. @_@; No rewards for it or something? And then you get the class change if it's good enough quality? Like a test or something... xD Yeah, uh, I'm satisfied with how Shenmock's going to be a Fist Fighter, but I'm still confused as to where Teishu's going. >_> Heavy Axe, archer, heavy blade, staying the same...ugh. >_<

Yeah, I'm gonna have to say thumbs-down to the multiclassing, too, for the same reason that Xantos has- it just doesn't fit with the whole .hack idea. I mean, even in GU, where they threw out the Adept Rogue in an attempt to try multiclassing, it didn't work so well. I doubt it would be any better here, to be honest.

As for the idea of a quest... I do like that thought. I think we should implement it that way. That third suggestion I threw out, kind of like the new classes we introduced for Divvy, sounds like it would work out best though.

For the record, the multi-classing idea just popped into my head. I wasn't actually suggesting it. >_>;;

Which is good. I've consistently denied multi-classing as a hack in Main since before GU even came out, and GU just adds more reason not to implement it, here at least.

Honestly I think they just put it in because they got too many complaints that Kite couldn't be a Long Arm or whatever else people wanted.

Yeah, it's not s'much as I don't enjoy multiclassing (Looove it. Gets soooo broken sometimes), but more I just don't really see it working out. Like I've said before, the classes are already incredibly versatile. I don't really think there's a need for it, honestly. Plus it'd be awkward to implement what with the current skill system and all.

Yes you have, which made me have to scroll down the list of hack ideas pretty far before finding something we could agree on. Granted, thinking back on them, they were all horribly unbalanced and overpowered, so it's kind of good that I settled on something with huge potential of growth...

Oh, and just a couple thoughts towards class changing. I think that there should be an event for it, kind of like in G.U. how you had to go through that spiral dungeon every time you wanted to gain a new class. Granted, through our event you wouldn't have access to your first class, but I figure we could have a sort of queue of people who want to change class, and once we get four or five of them, we run them on a FQVH-style event to get their new class. It'd probably be shorter than FQVH, but at least it'd make the people work for the change they're wanting.

One of the criteria we could use is to say that a changed class is worth three or four levels, and in order to get it, they have to earn the equivalent of that through our semi-regular questevent.

I figure that around halfway through the questevent, they change classes, and at the very end, after they've had some experience using that class, they discuss with the GM whether or not they want to be switched back. It'd work well, especially if IC it was a CC-Corp sponsored thing.

The only downside would be that one of the mods would have to take people on a GMed questevent every time the queue filled up, and events like FQVH don't have a very good track record for survival (DCS anyone?)...

I really like Dien's idea. I was going to post up something like that before I read his post. I think if we have a special event for the character change, maybe run every 6 months or something like that, it could be seen as a very viable option. You enter the special event assuming to HOPEFULLY get a class change, but if you do not meet the requirements for it (length and other stuff like that), you just receive normal quest rewards, that way no one feels like they've "wasted their time". Plus, that there by also raises their character level.

I don't like the idea of it being a semi-event held regularly. If someone wants to change their class but can't until the event is held, they'll probably just burn out before then and stop playing. Making the timing of it flexible by having it be a penalty or a quest you start yourself or a combination of the two makes much more sense to me; after all, it's about a character changing their class, thus it's individual and doesn't jive with a group setting/quest event thing, in my opinion. Having a level requirement/penalty/personal quest gives someone something solid to work towards, rather than a faroff event they have to wait around for.

I was thinking similarly.. an event in the focus of 'not-a-quest' [strike]and thus no reward past the class change possibly[/strike] but not an event in the sense of having to wait around for others first.

More of an individual quest of learning how the new class works and functions.

While I don't really like the hard-coded level restriction, maybe make multiple changes harder to aquire. To class change from a basic class to another basic class would first become attainable at level 10, and then if you don't like the new class, you'd have to stick with it until at least level 20 before you could consider another basic class change, etc.

And for basic classes to speciality classes, first you have to attain level 15 for the first change, and then if you decide you don't like the speciality class, you'd have to stick with it until level 30, and then continue with that pattern.

And if you changed to a speciality class, and then wanted to change back to a 'basic' class, you'd have to wait until level 20, and then level 30 to consider changing again.

I know we're putting a lot of thought into this, and probably the mods and admins are putting in their own thoughts and working out the details of how it would work. Maybe holding an IM chat for everyone interested would be a good idea, get all of the ideas put into one place and then sorted through, new ideas worked on and expanded, etc.

~Bastion & Jamie

As already said by the others... ironically, we were discussing this earlier this week.

There'll probably be a penalty for it... A flat one, slightly steeper to change to a standard class than to a specialty class, unless we iron the specials into standards. At the very least, I think we should iron out the specials to all start at the same level, but that's a separate can of worms.

Probably there'd be a level limitation on it; likely level 10 or so. Because thanks to the penalty, if you went any lower, you might as well just be starting over.

It's possible that instead, it might just be starting over but keeping all the same items and suchshit.

Aren't we a .hack rpg that tries to stick to a "true essense" of .hack? We're playing a roleplay where we're playing an MMO. In MMO's you don't just change your class willy-nilly, save FFXI, and get to play all over the board. You stick to the path you've chosen or you make a new character/accont and just deal with the grind.

To stick to a true IC experience, I don't think it should be allowed to change classes without restarting.

If we were sticking to the "true essence" of .hack, then we wouldn't have the new classes, or be able to change to them. This is simply an extension of that if the class-change rule gets passed the way we've discussed it thus far.

I agree with Locke. The door for changing classes has already been opened with the possibility for switching to a specialty classes. I don't like the idea of fencing ourselves in too much with the whole "MMO" thing, as that might be too restrictive for no good reason. I mean, we're here to have fun, right? :D Rules are meant to ensure that happens, imo, not just for the sake of existing. (Which of course does mean being restrictive in some areas.) After all, the rules in MMOs are for things like balancing gameplay and making sure it's fair so that everyone can have fun; I figure we should be working on the same principle, which doesn't necessarily mean following the same rules. I hope this makes sense. XD

Insert some proverb here about being inflexible to the point of becoming brittle and breaking. Basically, you can't run a successful site by forcing people to do things that are not fun. Certainly, not allowing class changes won't cause our instant demise, but we can't stick to canon so strictly that we're forced to accept .hack's flaws without question. Over time, it's become apparent (as discussed in the GD) that the series is not a real game. It doesn't have to deal with issues present in real MMOs. It's a story, and everything runs the way the creators want it to work, even if it wouldn't work that way with real people. This site has real players, however, and occasionally we have to accept that some of the game's mechanics might be flawed. It's also a writing forum, not a real MMO. Resetting your character in an MMO doesn't require writing new quests and regaining your equipment from scratch.

Think of it from a business perspective, too. Let's say that players want the game to work a certain way that would be more interesting than what adhering strictly to canon would permit. We refuse to provide those features. If another site emerged that offered a game with those features, people might not care that it's not following .hack exactly if it makes the game better. In a competition between two games, the funner game would probably win. It comes down to striking a careful balance between sticking to canon and doing so to the point of being impractical.

Actually, that's not completely true. While we do have some classes that are not canon, Fist Fighters are canon. Mind you, they don't appear under that name. There is relatively little reference material available on them. Apparently, the class was introduced between the time of the PS2 games and Legend of the Twilight. Ouka was not only among the players who became Fist Fighters, but also changed her class to a special class that gave her wolf features. It was sort of a subclass.

I'd considered that during my previous post here. I think setting the level requirement to 15 for special classes would be balanced.

Raethe's suggestion strikes me as the best. It circumvents the one flaw I'd seen in my own, which is that for a lower-level player, losing 5 levels is a relatively steep cost. Lyra takes it one step further: maybe we should have a slightly different condition for players at or under level 10. In general, I'd rather avoid any proposals for having quests to earn a class change.

While I'm for it, I'd like to point out that Archers are canon within the anime as well; you see shots of them in the background of .hack//SIGN. *will grab pics if need be*

The only reason I'm against something like losing levels for class change, is because not everyone levels at the same speed. I'm a pretty good example, five years and I'm only level twelve. Losing 5 would take roughly 2.5 years at my current pace to get back to where I was. Whereas for someone else that might only take a week. Five can be massive or minimal depending on the player, thus the reason the way I suggested was one that merely slowed people down instead of setting them back. Just wanting to throw that out.

I agree with Xan completely. I've been here for over 4 years and I'm only level 13. =3 It's not like my Shenny or anything. =D

3rd'd. As I said before, I think it would be much better to have something to reach for rather than give up...