It caught my eye that some people are using some other people's leveled up cards. This post leads me to believe that this is a no no. Could one of the new mods state whether the rule applies or not so that everyone will know whether or not to take the level 2+ cards off of their roster.

Yeah, I've noticed that, and I've been unable to put the level 1 versions in my profile... so if someone could revitalize that thread, I'd appreciate it as well, for accuracy.

This issue has been scattered since the re-assignment of power. The official rule is that, if you obtain a player's CCC, you are only allowed to use it's Level 1 incarnation. There is a post in the TCG forum that lists all original Level 1 character cards (for reference against those who have leveled their cards up and have also lost a CCC). We're in the process of updating everyone's information, and should have the cards all done with (hopefully) before any major problems ensue.

For right now, if you've leveled your character card up, and you've also lost your CCC to another player, please post here notifying us that you have. It will expedite the process of correctly amending the TCG official database.

Thanks.

Well, I'll notify you first, it seems. If you don't have my card on reference, it's like the one I have now, but with a 2 on bottom instead of a 4.

I fit that criteria!
It's a sad cruel fact that I have lost five times :"(

Level 1:
Level 2:

Perhaps the problem comes in how I was told to update the database.

As some of you are aware, I am the one responsible (largely) for the uploading of new and upgraded character cards. When Cypher instructed me on how to upgrade cards, he didn't say a thing about maintaining the originals in the photobucket account (though now I see where that particular and largely unused album "Character Card Duplicates" comes into play). Sadly, unless records were kept of the level one cards' information, there is no way to retrieve/recreate the level 1 cards.

...should we take this to the Modmobile?

As I mentioned to Jpec, this can be resolved by checking games where the original card was used and deriving their numbers from what happens in the game. Also, some people have the bad habit of saving cards to their own Photobucket accounts and linking to them in matches. Though that is against the rules and has been emphasized repeatedly, it may help in this case. There is likely someone out there who didn't pay attention and has the cards saved. On the other hand, this underscores one of the reasons for that rule: if people saved the level 2 cards then they may keep using them even after things are fixed.

Now... I'm sort of frustrated to hear this happened, but it's to be expected that there should be a few problems during transitions and with information getting lost. Look at my card, it's stored "properly" and should help you figure out how the system should work. In reality, the existing system he came up with is also flawed.

Savior probably never considered some of the glitches with the way TCG cards are stored. When an upgrade occurs, the card's owner uses the normal URL and other players use a new URL, I think. Instead, players should be using the old URL and the owner should be using a new URL to keep old matches from becoming corrupted. That is, the owner's card changes in every match it has ever been used in, and so old matches may sometimes seem incorrect. There should be a new URL for every upgrade, perhaps by appending a number to the end of the card's name and before the color.

Furthermore, Savior also allowed CCCs to be upgraded. This seems like a good decision because it allows people to get more out of the game, by being able to upgrade a "party" of cards. On leveling up, I could upgrade my copy of someone else's card instead of my own. This has never been problem because no one has ever upgraded a card other than their own CC. However, this has the major flaw that the framework for how to organize the cards and the URLs does not exist. Therefore, it could lead to things getting more messed up, similar to how things have been damaged right now.

I recommend settling on a system where the integrity of past matches is guaranteed while players can still use everything with absolute convenience. This may require a serious overhaul of things right now, but will avoid any future problems. First, upgrading CCCs should be removed for the time being. This will not be a problem because no one has ever done it (to my knowledge). Any upgraded cards should have their own URL, and every upgrade should require a new URL to the latest version of the card. That URL is kept in the Player Card Database. Meanwhile, keep copies of the original versions in a separate analogous thread. Everyone who wants to use a CCC will use the link in the CCC thread instead of the main thread. Then, upgrades will never result in corruption. Finally, we can go back through every match and edit the URLs to affected cards so that matches reflect the correct information.

Finally, I'd like to point out that the fixation with going back and reevaluating everything or trying to trace every single card may be a waste of time. It's already been done once or twice before. The TCG system was not run in a way that made it simple to check things and the process is error-prone. In fact, before Savior added new moderators, it became exceedingly hard to trade anything because decks weren't being updated, trades were being ignored, and suddenly people were supposed to PM any trade in (which didn't improve the situation anyway). I think things should be cleaned up a bit, and then the resulting state of everything should be considered "the current state". Then things will stay right if every change made is done correctly.

Edit: Here is a simple way of doing it:
-Everyone's current EXP is their final EXP. Any existing matches can be graded after that.
-The player decks can be corrected by hand. I've already noted the 110 errors or so that exist and it's easy to get the list again.
-All existing trade threads are closed. That includes shops. You start following trades from scratch and come up with a way of following trades correctly. One of the problems you may face is people going to shops, buying cards, then editing their posts to undo the purchase or alter it after decks have been updated. Those posts will probably never be read again.

Ko, thanks for reminding me what I forgot to post before I left on holiday. I noticed the same thing and yet forgot to mention it in the rush of packing. As Kiwi said, that's more or less what I noticed and...well, it just needed an overhaul.

What I was intending to do (With the permission from both Exangelus and a few of the other higher up mods), was to clear out all the unused CCs that are cluttering up the player card database just to allow less hassle when searching for your card. But for now, that ain't the issue. What I was thinking for a few changes are:

- Making the deck regulation a little better (I mean, who honestly posts a TCG mod with updates to their deck anyway? CCs are one thing, but with every booster? @_@)
-As I stated above ditching all the unused CCs to provide a cleaner working space (However, all CCs of innactive users will remain if someone here still has said card. Eg. SilentFlame's Card is one I can recall I think.)
- Redoing the upgrading CC rule (What I was thinking is you can only upgrade YOUR OWN CC, which means we only need to keep the URL of the same card twice at the most.)
- Adding a few more rules in for the sake of varience

As one of the acting TCG mods, I feel that Exangelus and I, along with any other Mods willing to give us a hand should redo what we can. I've more or less restated what Kiwi has said along with a couple of other things strung onto the end, but it is definately something worth working on. Give me orders and I'll toil away until it's done really, it's not like I have a life; no, really, I don't have a life. XD

And while we've got a thread open, is there anything else that anyone would like seen in the TCG forum as an improvement?

I don't quite understand what you're saying. I've bolded the part of your statement that doesn't make sense. If you're saying that people have to tell mods when they receive new cards from packs, then that's incorrect. Whoever creates the packs then adds the cards to the person's deck. If you mean in regards to trades and having to send a PM or something, then yes, that does become an enormous problem. I don't have much time right now so I'll comment on that later.

A good amount of cards have been distributed. SilentFlame has been handed off to a few people. Additionally, removing information for past players risks making it irrecoverable in the case they do return, and some may eventually wish to give their cards to someone else. There is also the case of players who have not been deleted but are inactive. I don't think those CCs clutter significantly, since they have their own thread and are even order.

Maybe you could use a new way of arranging the cards in the CC thread? Technically, if you post the pair first and follow that with the number, name, and other information, then all the cards will be lined up at the left post margin.

As for upgrading only your own card... it's not that critical since it never happened and no one really knew about that arrangement.

However, you need more than two URLs to the same card, assuming you refer to different-level versions as being the same card (because they're the card for the same person). Either way, it's worth pointing out explicitly that you will need to keep every version of a CC stored permanently as it levels up to prevent old matches from becoming nonsensical.


Savior had me create a program that can be used to handle the process of editing all the decks at once. It also highlights errors in the records and sets the corresponding color tags for every card, as well as sorts them by type (CC, CCC, monster, special) and alphabetical order on request. However, the program was not adopted because he was busy and there was very little deck-editing going on during the tournament. He also asked for one to simplify starting a new match, which is incomplete. We should do something about them. @_@ I wouldn't want them to go to waste.

A few issues to address. I'll try to go in order.

The issue of upgraded CCC's being used in battle is a widespread one, and in a post that I was writing up for a major update to the TCG, I had mentioned this, but I suppose this is as good a place as any. The new system would be to have each card after level one have an amended URL; i.e. 'ExangelusRed_2' for level two and 'Exangelus Red_3', and etc., for the appropriate level. Any new upgrades will be updated as such (technically, from since that point in time, but no one has upgraded their card since that point) from now on. This will be easily update-able for existing URLs.
Amendments:
- All new upgrades will be recorded with their normal names (i.e. KamiKazeKiwi3Blue), followed by an underscore and their card level (i.e. KamiKazeKiwi3Blue_3). Only the player themselves will be able to use this card. All players who have won a CCC from another player will use the first update of the card (i.e. KamiKazeKiwi3Blue) only, which will be posted in the existing thread (to be updated after all this is settled).
- All old upgraded cards will be amended with the correct URLs, and the Player Card Database will be updated by hand to control for the changes.
- The issue of old games being altered by upgraded CCCs is a daunting one. I'm going to ask that all players who have fought another player who used someone else's upgraded CCC notify me, Centrus, or Bane. Physically going through each player that has lost a CCC, and reading every match that his opponent's have played, and doing that for every player is as unspeakably time-consuming as it is probably irrelevant. The number of games that would have actually been altered if the player had used a card with one of its numbers higher is miniscule. I'm going to ask that every player who cares (I would assume, any player reading this thread [also, this update will be posted later on in an all-inclusive TCG update]) notify me if they think that a game they have played would have in any way been different if a wrongly-upgraded CCC was used by their opponent. If the player actually cares, they'll find it and tell us about it; otherwise, we're going to go with the results we have now, and start anew with the newest system of monitoring.

Kiwi mentioned the errors recorded in the Player Deck Database - I assume you mean the fact that there may be multiple listings of a card (i.e. Goblin x2, Swordmanoid x1, Deadly Moth x3, Goblin x1)? If so, I plan on a manual addend to the database myself. If this is not what you mean, please do notify me and we'll convene on the issue.

I think, for ease now, the system of upgrading one of your CCCs instead of your own personal card should be suspended, for ease and trackability. Once the dust settles, if we want to re-instate it, another side-system could be discussed for accomodation if there is enough push for it.

I don't think clearing out all the old CCs from the database is such a fantastic idea. The character ID#'s would no longer make sense, and any old players who've come back would have nothing to go on (Hardishane and his Tretharien card is a perfect recent example). It would make it... a little easier to navigate, I suppose, but the Ctrl+F function is the quickest, easiest way of finding the card you need without hassle. Most of the time, the card image is posted in the challenge thread, anyway. I have never run into any problems with the Player Card Database page itself (such as the alignment of the cards, as Kiwi mentioned), but if it remains to be a problem, contact me or the other moderators and we'll discuss it.

All update-able material is seen in its final stage at all times by a moderator. Card trades (which are easy to keep track of), purchasing of Monster packs, and duels are all in the end PMed to a moderator for amendment. The only possibly difficulty I see along this track is situations like Magras's Card Emporium, wherein players might purchase a card like an item, and either the card purchaser or Magras would not notify a moderator to update the decks.

Bane, you mentioned more rules, for variance? I was also thinking on this, and I've come up with a good number of updates that should be a pleasant addition to the game; like I had intended, these updates will be discussed with all of the acting moderators (myself, you, Centrus, and Savior) to vote on their incorporation. Once the rules are added, I also propose a major, sweep update to the TCG FAQ posted in the forum, for which we'd need Savior's permission and access. But these are to follow.

The programs you were working on, Kiwi, could still be of use. Though it's not nearly such an issue as if was when Savior was the only active moderator (with terms of Cypher jumping in and handling a few matches), a program to mass-edit the decks would certainly be useful. With three moderators now, however, the manual process is that much easier, and has worked to push full development of the program down on the list of priorities. As for starting a new match, and similar items, there is a Notepad template that was handed out to mods that allows us to just copy and paste names and card URLs (easily found and edit-copied in the challenge thread), as you may or may not have received. This makes the process very simple, if not the tiniest bit time-consuming, and applies to the same concept as the deck editor: it would certainly be useful, but addressing the more direct concerns of the game are higher on the to-do list.

I think that covers everything so far. Anything else, or more comments, along with any upgraded CCCs that have been passed out and are not listed in the TCG forum, keep posting.

@ Kiwi:
Yeah, that was a blunder on my have. Jetlag makes Bane a little...challenged when it comes to phrasing accurately as to what he means to say. What I meant was as you said, card trades and purchases. Yes, booster packs are easier to handle as we, as mods, deal with them specifically.

As for clearing out the old CCs and ones that aren't being used, I guess it's not a huge problem now that you've refreshed my mind about the ctrl+f feature. Although, I think what my concern was I think it's bandwidth? Or whatever it is that just makes pictures that load, that no one really uses, wastes loading time on the screen; with that being said though, all you with high speed computers are naturally uneffected by this.

As for the upgrading CCs, I mean, if players are only allowed to use the level 1 version, and you upgrade your own card whever you level, then all you really need is the level 1 version for any winners of the copy and then the most recent version for the owner; assuming I've got all my cards layed out on the table and aren't forgetting anything. Scratch that, finally made sense of the post. Note to self, don't eat, then start falling asleep when trying to post. @_@

To be honest, I'd love to see these programs implemented if we could if it makes things easier. And also, I never got the program for the shop either, which makes things difficult. The match starting one sounds nice, however, unless you had a way to include varied boards for elemental matches and such, it seems insuffient at this point in time.

@ Exangelus:
As for what was up with the errors in the PLayer Deck Database, I think it's just the fact that so many cards have not been recorded as traded, or whatever. The multiple counts of the cards themselves is no hassle and I could do it manually too if you need any help Ex.

I also second the suspension on upgrading other CCs, if not removing that rule altogether.

I see what you mean with the trade center. I mean, I was looking more on the "What if a thread was bumped and left others unnoticed, thus the lack in notification of a trade," issue. But the card shops run by players themselves seem like a bigger problem than that. @_@

Only problem with the talking to everyone about it is that it would most likely need to be done through PMs instead on IM due to time differences and whatnot. Yes, I do think that it would be a great idea to update majorly and I hope I can help in any small way I can. I think that with the new system however is that we shouldn't really worry about past matches unless people have a need or want to look back on them. Personally, I see no reason for looking back other than enjoyment, but as I write this in my mellow, tired state I can't help but feel I'm overlooking something.

Just to Summarise to make sure I've got things down pat:
- Upgrading CCCs that you own has been suspended and only your original CC can be upgraded
- The implementation of new rules and new shininess will take place after a conference between all mods involved
- Kiwi's programs are to be brought out and assessed on their usability in the TCG forum and then maybe implemented if all goes well
- The Player Deck Database needs a total overhaul to refresh what is and what isn't

Got a question though: What exactly do the player ID# do besides showing the order in which they registered, anyway?

Actually, I brought up elemental boards with Savior just before the last tournament. I was writing a program that would create perhaps 80 new boards, randomly generated, with varying amounts of elements included. It would help with the current limit of 12 or 14 elemental boards. We never got around to it because the tournament required our attention. The match program probably wouldn't help significantly with simple matches, except that it would quicken card selection. It would help with things like choosing a random hand from a list of cards, even when provided with rules like "4x LVL1 and CC", choosing a random elemental board, and... I can't remember the rest. I've got it written somewhere, but it's definitely something that's more useful for special matches. I'd say it's not urgent, but might help once things ramp up again.

I'll wrap up the deck manager at some point so that you guys can check it out and drool. ^_^

No, it's not the multiple counts. Ironically, the deck manager would automatically solve that, and it's simple enough to do by hand. Rather, a majority of the errors are misspelled names, some are cards without quantity numbers, others with obviously-mistyped quantities, and a few CCCs that are misnamed. For instance, let's say my card says "Tom" instead of "KamiKazeKiwi3", as happens with a few players. Well, there are a few cases where the the cards are listed with the name of the player (KamiKazeKiwi3), not the name of the card (Tom).

As for amending records to account for missed trades... That is practically impossible, and I think Ex was implying that things would just remain in their current state.

Right. All that's left now is deciding wht to do in the meantime while the updates are being prepared. Anything I can do while you prepare the programs?

I think that'd be up to Centrus and Exangelus. Once the Deck Manager is set, though, I may ask you for ideas on features for the match program. Of course, I need to get a few things done on the side, so that won't be instantaneous. Also, I often get feedback on what to change or add to a program after showing it off for the first time. In the meantime... maybe think of new rules, tap dance at Sekai, who knows? Of course, the other mods will know better, it's just what I can come up with off the top of my head while they sleep.

so if we've beaten a person when they had the lvl1 card, then beat them when they use the advanced card, we dibt get the lvl2?

Who gets PMed now to make CC's?

If you win someone's CCC, then you have to use the level 1 version.

And Ko, I believe it's Jpec that's PMed for new cards and such. As well as Ex/Bane.

No no, it's Ex and Bane. I don't have the program that generates the starter decks, and don't know the procedure for updating the in-forum databases or anything like that. I make the cards, but beyond that I am powerless.

Yeah. New TCG applications should be sent to either myself or Bane. Dien is the biggest effort in creating cards for us, though. We handle the updates and forum business, and he makes and updates the large majority of the cards.

I'll be available tomorrow to talk at length with the moderators about the string of upgrades. Until then, keep suggestions and questions coming. It's gonna be one heck of an update.

Just a note:

Not that I ever really did much there, but I requested to be removed from the TCG. Bane and Ex have it in their very capable hands.

So I return to the original question of this since it's happening AGAIN.

Shouldn't all CCC be at level one while CC level up? I've even noticed that the CCC's that I've collected have been leveling up so the second URL thing to seperate them hasn't been implimented.

Do we really find it fair for someone to gain a kick ass card because someone else worked their ass off in card games?

<_< I remember telling you this over MSN. Now I'm gonna state it here before I go grab some leftover pizza.

Due to the lack of attention paid across the board when saving the level 1 versions, the TCG staff have collectively decided that the rule is both outdated and makes very little sense with all things considering.

Consider your copy of my card. You beat me fair and square, so think of it like a miniature me. When I level up, the card should reflect me, as your reward for beating me. If all CCCs were level 1, do you know how many copies of the same stats we'd have? Also, it'd make the most commonly used cards, level 1 monsters, pretty much obsolete.

CCCs and CCs are supposed to be unique and dynamic, so from now on, let it be known that this is the stance on things.