That's retarded.

I am not anti-'hip'.

It's not that I am not 'down'

And I may be flamed for this, but I do not believe that it is tasteful or classy to get piercings, bellybutton rings, tatoos and the like.

I also do not think that these things coincide with God's instructions to treat our bodies as 'a temple'

That of course, is not meant disrespecfully towards anyone who does not share a faith in God, just my opinion as one wwho does.

Also, I do not think that someone who has any of the above are not good or classy people, but these are just my personal opinions on these things.

ghost, Jesus said that what defiles our bodies is not what goes into our mouths... it's what comes out of them. If you want I'll try to dig up the specific passage for you. I think he was talking about the Jewish pratice of not eating certain things (like pork) but I would think it could be applied fairly universally. it's not the fact that someone has a tattoo that goes against his teachings. it's what that tattoo says. therefore while the upside down cross I'm planning to get branded on my chest goes against the spirit of that statement, a simple brand or tattoo that said nothing negative about christianity would not. You could be a christian and have tattoos. you just couldn't be a christian and have satanic or anti religion tattoos. which I think should be fairly obvious anyway.

edit: ah, here we go.

Mark
7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man

Therefore, you can put all the ink and metal you want into your skin. it won't defile you. :P

edit 2: this is the verse I was actually thinking of

Matthew
15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

but hey, I like the Mark one better for what I'm saying anyway ;)

Though it does make you look like a clueless punk. And I can't see it helping you later in life. :hmm

I don't think that that quote entirely counters Ghost's point. Your body should still be treated with respect. A witty saying means nothing. Bible quotes aside, it's just the right thing. :ohwell:

But really, I've already decided from the beginning which way I'm going. The reasons that follow are just justifications.

actually, piercings will just close up and leave basically nothing behind. Unless you get a really big hole in your face ringed in metal (I've seen that and I don't know why anyone does it :blink: ) or you catch your earring on something and tear it out. Tattoos are more perminent, true. that's why it's generally a good idea to get them in places that aren't visible when you're fully clothed

I agree KD.

Omni, thanks for sharing those passages and I hope you didn't take my opinions personally, like I said, they are just my thoughts on the matter,. However, as far as Biblically, you can take it many different ways.

Leviticus and Numbers both have passages speaking out agaisnt tatoos, but then later, John The Baptist, Jesus's cousin, had several tatoos.

I prefer to look at the teachings of those who were most directly influenced by Christ, like the Disciples, or Paul, and Paul has some teachings that do cry out against tatooing the skin and I will find those for you when I have the chance.

Ok, I'm back ;)

Omni, just a couple of points. I know what you probably meant, but my obsessive compulsivness just make me want to clarify. When you say:

You could be a christian and have tattoos. you just couldn't be a christian and have satanic or anti religion tattoos. which I think should be fairly obvious anyway.

I have to point out that yes, of course you could still be a chrisitan. You can write 'I hate God' across your body, kill people or whatever and still be a christian. If yo ask for forgivness - no matter what you've done - through Christ, as the Lord and Savious who died on the cross for the sins of all mankind and then was ressurected to ascend to Heaven, you will be forgiven and accepted by God as a christian and secured eternal life in Heaven.

Also, Here are a few versus from the Bible that directly speak of tatoos and piercings.:


Lev 19:28 :

"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD. "

The verses I found on piercings are much more ambiguos. They are Old Testament and all seem to have to do with the practices of masters and slaves/servants.

Deut. 15:17

"Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust [it] through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise."

One that is very intersting - and can be taken as disaproving is the prophecy in Isaiah that says that the day will come when all jewelry that fits into a piercing will be removed from people.

Isaiah 3:18-24

" In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of [their] tinkling ornaments [about their feet], and [their] cauls, and [their] round tires like the moon,

3:19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

3:20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

3:21 The rings, and nose jewels."


...Anyway, I didn't mean to sidetrack this into a biblical discussion, lol - I just wanted to share those things........carry on! ;)

yeah, of course anyone can become christian later (though I'm a bit vague on the consequences of the fact that blaspheming the holy spirit is listed as an unforgivable sin) but I meant that if you were christian getting a pentagram (not really a satanic symbol, but I won't even go into the details of that) tattooed on your hindquarters would not be in keeping with that christianity.

and if we're being obsessive compulsive, my name is omichyron. no n. not omni. omi ;)

ah, a good point. though I think that is taken somewhat out of context.... remember, tattoos had a non christian, non jewish religious significance at the time that was written, and the line before it speaks of cutting one's flesh to remember the dead, also a pagan religious practice.

Your first quote on piercings is plainly speaking of a very specific use: to indicate that someone is a slave. it is not disapproving, as it says you may take slaves by doing that

once again, he's talking of a specific instance of this jewelry. he's talking about the daughters of Zion, who he's evidently unhappy with because they "are haughty and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes." To me it sounds like the mention of jewelry is talking about how displaying one's wealth openly is a bad thing. that would go along with all of the other Biblical mentions of wealth in a negative light, such as that ever so famous line about it being as hard for a rich man to get into heaven as it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

:o

good point. this was just a thread about Merin's consideration of a belly button piercing. if you want a biblical debate I'd offer to do that in another thread, but I think we've probably put forth the main ideas already and we would start repeating ourselves soon :blink:

and if we're being obsessive compulsive, my name is omichyron. no n. not omni. omi

...sorry omichyron, my bad. I'm a dyslexic bit sometimes.

Good points btw, and you're right, it is a good debate, but back to our regularly scheduled programming of bellybutton ring talk ;)

While the verse about what you eating not defiling you is a great passage, unfortunately it has no bearing on the question of tatoos or piercings.


And while you can argue about forgiveness for such things as tatooing satanic symbols on you, it really is pointless since a true Christian would never do such a thing.

The big deal here is association. When considering doing something like piercing or tatooing you must ask yourself "What am I associating myself with by doing this?"

You can be a Christian and still get tatoos or piercings, but how is the unbelieving world going to view it? Are they going to label you a compromiser in that area? What is it going to do for your testimony? All of these questions need to be asked before doing such things. You may feel like getting a bellybutton pierced, but the world may associate it with rebellion, sexuallity, or some other thing that would harm your testimony as a Christian in an unbelieving world. You need to weigh that in most importantly.


We are commanded to be shine as lights in the world. Don't do anything that would dim your light, so to speak.............;)

i donno if this is the right thread, but merin I think a belly button ring would be cute, but like all peircings keep it clean. Your young be wild and crazy.

show off your mid section, it ain't bad :)

Mat is absolutely right here. Associating is the issue. To me, belly button rings look like a trend that all the cheerleader types go along with. Tattoos need not be so, however. I have seen several people with religious images tattooed on themselves in the time when I have been up here. The "A" I have branded on my own arm won't cause me to be associated with any groups I don't actively seek association with. The upside-down cross I want on my chest may get me labelled a satanist, which I am not, but ultimately it is only a symbol in opposition of christianity. of course a christian would have to be an idiot to get those same brands and expect to avoid associations he or she would view as negative. I'm simply arguing that body modifications that aren't directly anti christian don't go against what's in the Bible. I'm not saying you should all run out and cover yourselves in tattoos.

and it really does sound to me that this verse is talking about all environmental influences, not just food.

Mark
7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man

The issue there was that the Pharisees were upset because the disciples had forsaken a Jewish custom that said you must wash your hands before eating because if you didn't it would make you "unclean".

Jesus was pointing out the hypocracy of the Pharisees because they were calling the disciples unclean due to eating unclean food made unclean by the not washing of hands. However, Jesus called the Pharisees unclean by what came out of their mouths and not what went into their mouth.


To associate it with other Scripture - The Bible says that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. This can then be carried over to show that when Christ was saying this he was saying that the Pharisees had unclean hearts and it showed by their speech and THAT was what defiled them.




We must be careful to take Scripture and keep it in context. While one may make certain applications out of what the Scripture says, you must look at what was being said and why. In this case it is not dealing with the outward it is dealing with the heart.

yes... specifically it is saying that what defiles someone is an unclean heart, not an unclean body. the outward part doesn't matter. it's what's inside

The passage isn't saying that the outward doesn't matter, but the outward is going to be a picture of the inward - Which is the most important.

I think we should all take a moment to write down the time and place of this thread for posterity's sake. It has the honor to be the first serious discussion in the history of the cookie cabinet....

I do believe ghost is right. this is our first serious discussion here :blink:

as for you Matt, I'm curious where you stand on this issue... if the outward self is a picture of the inward self, do you think it goes against the teachings of the Bible to get

1) Religious tattoos. a cross. I (heart) Jesus.... whatever
2) Secular tattoos. a cartoon character. a person's name. a US Navy symbol. ect
3) satanic tattoos or those against religion in general. a pentagram. an upside down cross. a laughing devil. etc

personally, I think only category 3 is really against the Bible, with tattoos having some significance to another religion fitting into this category, but of course if someone belongs to another religion s/he isn't going to be reading the Bible in the first place.

and what makes earrings an acceptable piercing to you while the rest are not? (or was it ghost who said that?) except for tongue rings, nipple rings, or piercings in the pubic area, piercings in general have no sexual significance. Arguably, if you're wearing a shirt that shows your belly button anyway, having a little sparkly thing there isn't going to make you any more slut-like.

of course this whole discussion is academic for me anyway because (as I assume you've already noticed) I'm definately not christian. I've only read through the whole Bible twice in my life; the first time prompted me to stop being christian back in 7th grade, whereas the second time failed to convince me to return to being christian when I had a girlfriend doing her best to convert me. Just because something is against the Bible doesn't mean I necessarily disapprove of it (homosexuality, for example. I have 4 or 5 friends who are bisexual girls and I know at least 2 openly gay guys, though they aren't really close friends of mine). I just don't think that tattoos and piercings actually are against the Bible.

;)

I personally have nothing against tattoos and piercings as long as they are tasteful.

If it's porn you have tattooed on your back or some symbol that is offensive to people whether for cultural or religious reasons...then I have a problem with that.

You guys are right about the image piercings and tattoos give. When I see a girl walking around in a baby doll shirt with a dangly belly button ring I tend to think of her as a snob and b*tch :\

The ring I had in mind, btw, would have been just a small stud ;)

Biblically, I believe that what was being said was for people not to become so obsessed with their outward appearances and instead to focus on how and who they are in the world.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to look nice or something, but when you are doing it to be vain, that's the problem.

remeber merin its how it makes you feel, not how others see you. Who cares what other think of you? If they judge you badly because of a belly button ring they are closeminded and can't see past outward appearances. Also in this day and age, belly button rings aren't anything special, but they can look cute and sexy.

Well...the difficulty with not caring what others think is that as a Christian I should care what other think :P

if what I am doing is something that reflects badly on my faith, then I would in the end be doing myself a disservice by continuing that activity or look.

If I don't treat my various piercings in a skanky manner, I doubt I'll attract much notice.

and besides...I'm already cute and sexy :flash:

That is the whole of the matter. The issue is your testimony to people that know you are Christian and would look down on you and your tesimony if you did it.


And Omi..........

I am in fact a diehard Christian. I am currently studying to be a pastor/teacher. In answer to your questions:

1) I think that it doesn't matter to me because it isn't my place to judge the heart of someone that would tatoo religious symbols on themselves. I personally will never tatoo and there is an automatic association with rebellion/the world that goes with tatoos in general, however, for me to judge the spiritual state of a person only on those basis would be very weak. I will say, however, that the only Christians that I have ever known that have gotten "Christian Tatoos" don't care at all about the things of God anymore.


2) There really is no difference here than with #1. Unless the "secular tatoo" goes against moral issues in some way (ie.Playboy Bunny, KKK, etc.). In that case I would turn to #3.


3) Satanic/immoral tattoos are wrong not because of them being tatoos but because they go against the teachings of Scripture. I would have just as much of a problem with someone that has a pentagram on them as I would with someone that has the Playboy Bunny or KKK. The Satanic rejects the Bible as a whole and the other two reject basic Bible principles (ie. fidelity, love). In those cases you still would look at the heart and ask, "Why would someone associate themselves with those things unless they too have rejected the Bible principles as well."

People want to cloud the issue with the "what's" and they sometimes don't try to understand the "why's".


As far as piercings are concerned. I would associate a lot of piercings with sex or rebellion. Again the heart is an issue here. I can't really say other than that on a spiritual level.

On a personal level:A PREFERENCE would be no piercings at all except for the ear. I am personally disgusted with certain types of piercings because they just look plain awful. I think a tongue, eyebrow, nose, or lip piercing looks gross and it disgusts me as a person. I will never pierce anything either.


I really don't know if I could explain it any clearer.

Amen Mat - No pun intended. ;)